Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
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15-09-2017, 11:28 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 09:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(15-09-2017 07:27 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Yeah, this person isn't debating, they are preaching. You're just giving them the fodder to distort that they need and want.

The need to preach. Why do they do it, and *need* (so desperately) to preach. Because on some level, they know it's all bullshit, and if they can get someone else to buy into the bullshit, they get some measure of affirmation ("See you believe this crap too ... so I can't be ALL wrong").

Guess what ? It IS *all wrong*.

I think you're probably correct in your interpretation of them needing to preach, and I also think you are correct, in general, about why they feel the need to preach.

Personally, I don't particularly care why they need to preach anymore. I think it is telling, but it's also difficult to actually conclusively determine outside of them explicitly saying it, and the odds of them admitting that they need to preach as a way of convincing themselves of their bullshit, is unlikely. It doesn't really matter why they need to preach, but I do think it is beneficial to point it out. Maybe simply doing that will cause them to ask themselves why they are preaching. When they realize (if they really) that they are preaching and are doing so because they feel some need to do it, maybe they will ask why they fill that need. If they manage to get that far, then maybe they'll realize it is because they don't really believe it or find it illogical or etc etc.

Trying to point out to the theist that they feel the need to preach because they intuitively "know" their beliefs are bullshit, is almost certain to result in them putting up a roadblock and ending the dialogue. (not that I am accusing you of saying this to any given theist, BB).

And it may not always be true either. I feel the need to debate religion with theists (christians in particular) and I have asked myself on numerous occasions if that need is similar to the need to preach that I felt when I was a christian (the need being fueled by not really believing it and instead being fueled by trying to convince myself I was correct). It isn't and I think that is demonstrated by how my thought process plays out in these conversations. I am not floundering to defend an indefensible position, relying on "faith" or some other such nonsense as a way of backing out of a conversation I see as having taken a turn away from my control.

Although I don't know that I can fully explain my current "need" with respect to these religious conversations. Am I trying to deconvert people? I don't think so because I don't think I have the capacity to cause someone to change their worldview. Am I helping others who are on the fence see the perspective of an atheist? Maybe, but that burden is on the other person and not on me and more likely than not I won't know if I have influenced a reader of my comments or not (lurkers are more abundant than participants it would seem). Am I entrenched in my old ways and now it feels natural to me to have these conversations? I don't know, maybe? Am I doing it to waste time and keep my brain occupied when I am bored? Ummm....yeah, this is probably the most prominent reason. Speaking of which, I really should get back to writing something else...

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15-09-2017, 12:28 PM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2017 12:41 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 06:28 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  His argument is that logic itself shows that there is more.

"There must be some non-physical part of the universe since Logic isn't possible in a physical only universe where every action, word and thought of humans is determined by prior causal conditions and the physical laws. I.e. if all of one's thoughts determined by the atoms and their subatomic particles [which must act in accordance to the physical laws] then how can one say that they have objectively concluded whether a logical argument is valid? They are like an actor in a play reading a pre-written script."

I don't think this point has been made before in this discussion.

Your friend is assuming that materialism equals determinism, that it must be reductionistic. This isn't true. Materialism embraces emergent properties: properties that didn't exist in simple combinations of matter can come into existence with more complex arrangements of matter. One of such properties is the symbolic processing possible in the very complex human brain. So symbolic processing, including logic, does not have to reduce to "atoms and their subatomic particles" at all.
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15-09-2017, 02:21 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
Logic is the way real, physical things that do exist relate to each other. and physical things do in fact interact with each other is a predictable manner. If you understand these things, you can use them to your advantage. If one does not understand logic, one will fail to be able to do that in a meaningful manner.

Positing something beyond the physical and the relationships of physical things puts the burden of proof on those who claim such things to demonstrate that is true with hard evidence.

It's not Russell's teapots all the way down. Empty hypotheses are just that.

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15-09-2017, 04:21 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
Sounds like the person that you have been debating is trying to get you to concede that there could be more than a physical universe logically, don't concede, otherwise he or she will try to squeeze some god or other out of his or her arse.

The burden of proof is not on your shoulders, this has probably already been said but I cba reading the whole thread.
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15-09-2017, 07:05 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
wait, logic proves there is more to the universe than the physical? I've heard this before and my response is the same: No. Just no. The usual form of this is "numbers exist outside of physical reality, therefore God can exist outside physical reality." This is garbage. Or, more charitably, it is a misunderstanding of what logic and numbers ARE.

Logic is essentially the rule that propositions must be internally consistent. I cannot say that an object is both all blue and all red at the same time and be logical, because those two propositions are mutually exclusive. That's why it is not logical to hold the propositions "all things need a cause" at the same time as one holds the position "god is a thing that does not need a cause." These two are mutually exclusive propositions.

Logic is a thing people MADE UP. It is a series of axioms and exists only so long as there are minds present to think about it. If there were no minds then logic would not exist.
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16-09-2017, 07:15 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
The physical universe is running down and will end some day. If it has an end it must also have had a beginning. There must be something outside of the physical universe that caused it to begin.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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16-09-2017, 07:56 AM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2017 08:05 AM by unfogged.)
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(16-09-2017 07:15 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The physical universe is running down and will end some day.

It does appear that the universe will reach a state of maximum entropy but that is not quite the same as ending. It would still exist, it would just be really boring.

Quote:If it has an end it must also have had a beginning.


The set of negative numbers ends at zero but is unbounded in the other direction. I don't know if a similar situation could exist for physical things but I find it pretty arrogant to think that you are capable of setting limits on infinity. Besides, your claim that it will end is dubious since your "end" doesn't actually mean the universe no longer existing. Given that, you can't use "begin" to bring it into existence. Equivocation doesn't lead to a good argument.

Quote:There must be something outside of the physical universe that caused it to begin.

That is a category error. You are applying the rules that we observe within the universe to the universe itself and that is questionable at best.

Even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that the universe was caused we have no information on what that could be so any speculation as to the attributes of that cause are wholly unfounded. There is simply no justification for assuming intelligence or intent.

You have no basis for your beliefs.

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16-09-2017, 08:18 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(16-09-2017 07:15 AM)theophilus Wrote:  There must be something outside of the physical universe that caused it to begin.

Why?

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16-09-2017, 08:51 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(16-09-2017 07:15 AM)theophilus Wrote:  If it has an end it must also have had a beginning. There must be something outside of the physical universe that caused it to begin.
Non sequitur fallacy. The big bang could have just transformed the universe into what it is right now from something entirely different, but from something already existing.

But you know what, just for funs sake i grant you that: The universe has (possibly) a cause.

So what?


Whats next?
"The universe has a cause and it is my very special personal god, because some book saz so?"

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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16-09-2017, 11:23 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(16-09-2017 07:15 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The physical universe is running down and will end some day.
The universe in its current state will end some day. The universe may go through a phase transition prior to this and become something entirely different.
Or maybe, our "normal" matter will die and disintegrate but dark matter and energy won't, leaving a new 'dark universe'.

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