Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
16-09-2017, 11:41 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(16-09-2017 07:15 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The physical universe is running down and will end some day. If it has an end it must also have had a beginning.

How do you know? Were you there?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Mathilda's post
16-09-2017, 12:00 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(16-09-2017 07:15 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The physical universe is running down and will end some day. If it has an end it must also have had a beginning. There must be something outside of the physical universe that caused it to begin.

Wrong again, Theoriduculous.

1. The universe has been proven to be non-intuitive. Without evidence you can make no such statements and be taken seriously.
2. Expanding does not mean "running down" .. it's an open question.
3. "Caused to begin" is meaningless in a timeless environment. The real question is how did Causality get "caused",
and if it was always in place, your god did not create Reality. It FOUND itself in a larger Reality.
4. There is no reason the universe could be nothing but an infinite series of bangs and re-bangs. The jury is out on that one also.
Lose. Lose. Lose and Lose. Not such a good day, eh ? Your stupid presumptuous nonsense you learned by rote at the feet of religionists are nothing but childish simplistic garbage.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Bucky Ball's post
16-09-2017, 12:25 PM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2017 12:28 PM by Mathilda.)
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
Theists always rely on equivocation with the word 'caused'. When you think of all the specific ways that something is caused, it's always a rearrangement of matter and energy. Nothing ever pops into existence.

So if we use Xtian logic and apply our environment based intuition to the cosmological level, what is so special about the Big Bang if it's just a rearrangement? Why insert your god there?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Mathilda's post
16-09-2017, 01:17 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
I get tired of hearing people enthralled by the power of logic declaring bold and dumbfounding empirical claims based on little more than their own hunch - and almost always motivated by their desire to insert magic into the world. Bor-ing.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes whateverist's post
16-09-2017, 01:34 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
no no no NO, how many times must we go through this. Dodgy

logic is just a process we uses to make inferences and deductions based on events and information and that they make sense. Any logical inferences or statements made are meaningless without evidence supporting it.

P1. Chewbacca is a Wookie
P2. Wookie's are pink
C1. Chewbacca is pink

by pure logic this conclusion is correct and follows both premises without any contradiction BUT its dead wrong and inapplicable in reality due to the inconvenient fact that Wookies DON'T exist, George Lucas made them up for his star wars movies. So unless we can actually find a Wookie and prove that they are all pink then any argument about Wookies is meaningless and pointless as you can't verify any of it in reality

The more one asserts their own unquestioned preconceived beliefs, the more demanding I will be for empirical evidence for I will accept nothing else in place of it
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Ace's post
16-09-2017, 02:56 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
Dude. You just ruined Star Wars. Sad

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Banjo's post
16-09-2017, 05:32 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(16-09-2017 07:15 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The physical universe is running down and will end some day.

Not exactly. The universe is not "running down" so much as the amount of available energy is decreasing. Total energy may be relatively stable, only converted from usable to unusable. At some point the universe will contain no usable energy and will be exceptionally boring. This doesn't mean the universe will end, all the stuff will still be there (excepting the possibility of energy/matter exiting this universe via black holes or quantum fluctuations, but either way this would not cause a significant change).
Quote: If it has an end it must also have had a beginning.

Nope. As some have noted, the set of negative numbers is absolutely bounded at zero, but has no lower limit. As such, this does not logically follow. But there's also the other issue that the universe may be infinite and have a definite limit at the same time. Think asymptotes in algebra.
Quote:There must be something outside of the physical universe that caused it to begin.

Hm, nope. It could be uncaused, it could be eternal, we just don't know. There MIGHT be something outside the universe, but we just don't have any reason to think that at the moment. We don't know. So we can't say there "must" be anything.

But let's say I'm being generous and grant your premise without question. So what? This in no way leads to a personal god or to a supernatural entity of any kind. It gives us no idea of what this something outside our universe might be. I could use the EXACT SAME argument to push for a universe in a jar, or that our universe was vomited up by a turtle. Which makes this line argument absolutely useless.

Ace Wrote:Logic is just a process we uses to make inferences and deductions based on events and information and that they make sense. Any logical inferences or statements made are meaningless without evidence supporting it.

P1. Chewbacca is a Wookie
P2. Wookie's are pink
C1. Chewbacca is pink

by pure logic this conclusion is correct and follows both premises without any contradiction BUT its dead wrong and inapplicable in reality due to the inconvenient fact that Wookies DON'T exist, George Lucas made them up for his star wars movies. So unless we can actually find a Wookie and prove that they are all pink then any argument about Wookies is meaningless and pointless as you can't verify any of it in reality

It isn't wrong so much as irrelevant. What you are doing is defining a set called "Wookies" and adding a qualifier that wookies are pink. Therefore any member of the set wookies must be pink. This is a synthetic proposition. Synthetic propositions are true because they relate only to definitions.

However there is another group of propositions called analytic propositions, which require inputs from the real world. We can keep defining traits of the set "wookie" as long as we want, and they will necessarily be true UNTIL we place a qualifier that would put them in the real world. The statement "wookies are pink" is NECESSARILY true because it is part of the definition of the set wookie. But if I say "wookies live in Wisconsin" then that MAY OR MAY NOT be true because that requires input from the real world. It is an analytic proposition and as such cannot be proved by argument but by inspection of the real world.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes natachan's post
16-09-2017, 05:52 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 06:28 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  I've been in a debate on Reddit and this line of thinking really is driving me nuts. This user keeps coming back to there is no evidence that the physical is all there is. So it's not logical to believe that the physical is all there is...

I long ago gave up wasting my time debating with these sorts of uneducated, self-styled pseudo-philosophers.
I'd suggest you just walk away, and let him waste somebody else's time with endless circular argumentation. Dodgy

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like SYZ's post
17-09-2017, 05:47 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(16-09-2017 12:25 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  So if we use Xtian logic and apply our environment based intuition to the cosmological level, what is so special about the Big Bang if it's just a rearrangement? Why insert your god there?

Because that's the point of the exercise.
Retroactive justification of the bullshit they want to end up looking like they have laid a foundation for.
Presuppositionalism. They know where they want to end up, .... so they make it happen.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Bucky Ball's post
17-09-2017, 05:53 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(16-09-2017 07:15 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The physical universe is running down and will end some day. If it has an end it must also have had a beginning. There must be something outside of the physical universe that caused it to begin.

This is an argument from ignorance, there are other possibilities:

1. There was something concordant with the beginning of the universe that caused the creation of the universe, the creation of the universe is linked to the creation of time and causation.

2. The universe always existed and never had a beginning.

3. Superman created it with his heat vision.

There could be an almost infinite number of explanations for why the universe exists, but how do you think we could narrow down the possibilities?

Perhaps looking for evidence without loaded presuppositions might be useful.

Which one of these has the most obvious presuppositions?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like TheInquisition's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: