Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
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17-09-2017, 02:51 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
There may be evidence for other universes ... we don't know yet. There are patterns in the Cosmic Microwave Background data that were thought to point to it, but the expected WMAP (Wilkenson Microwave Anisotrophy Probe) data did not confirm what what would have been seen as confirmation data ... so we wait ...
But every time humans have thought they have discovered what they think must be the smallest or the largest elements of reality, they have been wrong. So I'll go with, "probably yes". We'll see.

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18-09-2017, 03:18 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 06:28 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  I've been in a debate on Reddit and this line of thinking really is driving me nuts. This user keeps coming back to "there is no evidence that the physical is all there is. So it's not logical to believe that the physical is all there is."

He who makes the batshit crazy claims provides the evidence. Until he does that belief is little more than a demonstration of empty-headedness.

Quote:"There must be some non-physical part of the universe since Logic isn't possible in a physical only universe where every action, word and thought of humans is determined by prior causal conditions and the physical laws.

You should point out that he's making this argument using a computer that performs several billion logical operations per second. Does he think that microchips use some strange supernatural powers? Though that might explain a lot about Windows. Consider

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20-09-2017, 07:49 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 06:28 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  I've been in a debate on Reddit and this line of thinking really is driving me nuts. This user keeps coming back to "there is no evidence that the physical is all there is. So it's not logical to believe that the physical is all there is."
The first part of that statement is false on the face of it.
Pretty much all the evidence we have is that the physical is all there is.
And we have a fuck of a lot of evidence.

Quote:His argument is that logic itself shows that there is more.

[quote]"There must be some non-physical part of the universe since Logic isn't possible in a physical only universe where every action, word and thought of humans is determined by prior causal conditions and the physical laws.

I.e. if all of one's thoughts determined by the atoms and their subatomic particles [which must act in accordance to the physical laws[ then how can one say that they have objectively concluded whether a logical argument is valid?

They are like an actor in a play reading a pre-written script. They say the argument is valid but have no way to have reached that conclusion via an objective analysis and evaluation.

Yet here we are at least trying to be logical and evaluating each other arguments.
He seems to be conflating the restrictions of physical laws and conditions with absolute determinism. The fact that a great deal of quantum mechanical interactions seem to be probabilistic in nature would tend to cast doubt on the validity of that conflation.

At root, logic is simply the formal study of how we explain the world. That we can and do attempt to explain the world is an outgrowth of the faculties of perception and cognition, both of which -- all evidence to date shows -- are tied to physical brain function.

Quote:And it gets worse, as we cannot say that we know anything since that would be part of that pre-written script as well.

A physical only universe leaves us with no logic, and no knowledge."
We only have knowledge insofar as the explanations we develop for observed phenomena have useful predictive power. All knowledge is qualified. When we reach a point at which the predictive power of our current knowledge seems to fail, we refine, improve, or change our explanations to have better predictive power, and our knowledge advances. There is no particular reason to believe that there is a finite endpoint to this process, which nonetheless is not outside the physical universe.

Quote:I'm looking at this and just in my gut it seems wrong, but I cannot articulate why. Anyone out there seem to see a flaw? My first thought is that logic isn't a thing, it's a set of rules to coherently rationalize the universe.

The basic flaw -- as others have pointed out -- is that his argument stems from a logical fallacy: argumentum ad ignorantiam, the appeal to ignorance.

The other flaws just sort of naturally arise from that flawed starting point.

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02-07-2018, 01:38 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
I know this thread is old, but I'm new, and have recently been thinking about this argument.

Basically, the theist asserts that without god we cannot know or understand what is logical or not. Maybe they'd go so far as to suggest that logic wouldn't exist.

You can call this into question by following the arguments through. If you argue that without god there is no logic, it would follow that in a natural universe, uncreated by god, two contradictory statements could both be true. Obviously this is rediculous. No matter what universe you're in, two contradictory statements can't both be right. It's not as if the universe has natural origins that this would fly.

Secondly, with regards to how we discern what is logical or not, imagine this situation. There is a fire, and the fire department is called for help. When they ask where the fire is, two locations are given, for one fire. What happens? Some firemen will go to one location, some will go to another. One group will encouter a fire, and the other won't. One fire cannot logically be in two places at once. The problem will become very apparent to the group that didn't encounter a fire. Despite how they explain the situation, if they are fully functioning cognitively, they'll notice the difference.

A god is not necissary for logic to exist, and it is easily demonstrated how humans would realize how logic helps us navigate the world.
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02-07-2018, 03:46 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(02-07-2018 01:38 PM)braden Wrote:  Basically, the theist asserts that without god we cannot know or understand what is logical or not. Maybe they'd go so far as to suggest that logic wouldn't exist.

Ask them for the book, chapter, and verse that describes how logic works.

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02-07-2018, 03:52 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(02-07-2018 03:46 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 01:38 PM)braden Wrote:  Basically, the theist asserts that without god we cannot know or understand what is logical or not. Maybe they'd go so far as to suggest that logic wouldn't exist.

Ask them for the book, chapter, and verse that describes how logic works.

Then ask them which logical system they chose to use, and why they chose that one.

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02-07-2018, 06:47 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(02-07-2018 03:46 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 01:38 PM)braden Wrote:  Basically, the theist asserts that without god we cannot know or understand what is logical or not. Maybe they'd go so far as to suggest that logic wouldn't exist.

Ask them for the book, chapter, and verse that describes how logic works.

Some "sophisticated" theists might claim as per Descartes that all the metaphysical necessities were created by God, including the laws of logic. (Descarte's letters to Marin Mesennes). How does that all work? Only God can know. The ultimate God of the Gaps.

Of course that leaves the problem of how a perfectly good God with that level of power allows moral evil to exist.

“It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction.”
― Harry G. Frankfurt, On Bullshit

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03-07-2018, 04:56 AM
Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(02-07-2018 01:38 PM)braden Wrote:  I know this thread is old, but I'm new, and have recently been thinking about this argument.

Basically, the theist asserts that without god we cannot know or understand what is logical or not. Maybe they'd go so far as to suggest that logic wouldn't exist.

You can call this into question by following the arguments through. If you argue that without god there is no logic, it would follow that in a natural universe, uncreated by god, two contradictory statements could both be true. Obviously this is rediculous. No matter what universe you're in, two contradictory statements can't both be right. It's not as if the universe has natural origins that this would fly.

Secondly, with regards to how we discern what is logical or not, imagine this situation. There is a fire, and the fire department is called for help. When they ask where the fire is, two locations are given, for one fire. What happens? Some firemen will go to one location, some will go to another. One group will encouter a fire, and the other won't. One fire cannot logically be in two places at once. The problem will become very apparent to the group that didn't encounter a fire. Despite how they explain the situation, if they are fully functioning cognitively, they'll notice the difference.

A god is not necissary for logic to exist, and it is easily demonstrated how humans would realize how logic helps us navigate the world.


When did the laws of logic come into existence?

Can they be reduced to a brain process? Or do they transcended this?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-07-2018, 03:29 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(03-07-2018 04:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  When did the laws of logic come into existence?

Can they be reduced to a brain process? Or do they transcended this?

The "laws" of logic are much like the "laws" of nature. They are our descriptions of natural phenomena. They came into existence round about the time some philosopher wrote them. In much the same way, gravity has been kicking around for some 13.8 Billion years but Newton's "Law" of Gravity didn't come into existence until Newton did some daydreaming in an orchard.

Your brain functions are based on these phenomena. Hard to conceive of a brain that would function without basic causality.

The phenomena that we call logic have likely been around since the beginning of the universe. We use that concept all the time. If I see a dinosaur footprint in a rock then I may logically infer that at some point in the distant past some bloody enormous lizard stepped into the mud that became this rock. Logic likely didn't exist "before" the universe because it is difficult to conceive of a logical system without space, time, existence, or causality.

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03-07-2018, 03:57 PM
Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(03-07-2018 03:29 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(03-07-2018 04:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  When did the laws of logic come into existence?

Can they be reduced to a brain process? Or do they transcended this?

The "laws" of logic are much like the "laws" of nature. They are our descriptions of natural phenomena. They came into existence round about the time some philosopher wrote them. In much the same way, gravity has been kicking around for some 13.8 Billion years but Newton's "Law" of Gravity didn't come into existence until Newton did some daydreaming in an orchard.

Your brain functions are based on these phenomena. Hard to conceive of a brain that would function without basic causality.

The phenomena that we call logic have likely been around since the beginning of the universe. We use that concept all the time. If I see a dinosaur footprint in a rock then I may logically infer that at some point in the distant past some bloody enormous lizard stepped into the mud that became this rock. Logic likely didn't exist "before" the universe because it is difficult to conceive of a logical system without space, time, existence, or causality.


The law of gravity existed before Newton, Newton may have been the first to articulate them properly, but it existed independent of his discovery. The same way evolution, didn’t pop into existence when Darwin penned his theory.

But either way you seem to indicate that the laws
of logic exists the way the law of gravity exists, and they both exist independent of minds, in fact proceed the very existence of them.

The laws of logic often called the laws of thought exist independent of our thinking minds, and yet you fail to see how this appears as ascribing mental attributes to external reality?

That you’re attributing features of mental states, on to a reality that supposedly not mental?

Either way, it shouldn’t be too puzzling why such beliefs, lend themselves to teleological/created views of reality.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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