Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
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17-09-2017, 02:51 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
There may be evidence for other universes ... we don't know yet. There are patterns in the Cosmic Microwave Background data that were thought to point to it, but the expected WMAP (Wilkenson Microwave Anisotrophy Probe) data did not confirm what what would have been seen as confirmation data ... so we wait ...
But every time humans have thought they have discovered what they think must be the smallest or the largest elements of reality, they have been wrong. So I'll go with, "probably yes". We'll see.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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18-09-2017, 03:18 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 06:28 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  I've been in a debate on Reddit and this line of thinking really is driving me nuts. This user keeps coming back to "there is no evidence that the physical is all there is. So it's not logical to believe that the physical is all there is."

He who makes the batshit crazy claims provides the evidence. Until he does that belief is little more than a demonstration of empty-headedness.

Quote:"There must be some non-physical part of the universe since Logic isn't possible in a physical only universe where every action, word and thought of humans is determined by prior causal conditions and the physical laws.

You should point out that he's making this argument using a computer that performs several billion logical operations per second. Does he think that microchips use some strange supernatural powers? Though that might explain a lot about Windows. Consider

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20-09-2017, 07:49 PM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 06:28 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  I've been in a debate on Reddit and this line of thinking really is driving me nuts. This user keeps coming back to "there is no evidence that the physical is all there is. So it's not logical to believe that the physical is all there is."
The first part of that statement is false on the face of it.
Pretty much all the evidence we have is that the physical is all there is.
And we have a fuck of a lot of evidence.

Quote:His argument is that logic itself shows that there is more.

[quote]"There must be some non-physical part of the universe since Logic isn't possible in a physical only universe where every action, word and thought of humans is determined by prior causal conditions and the physical laws.

I.e. if all of one's thoughts determined by the atoms and their subatomic particles [which must act in accordance to the physical laws[ then how can one say that they have objectively concluded whether a logical argument is valid?

They are like an actor in a play reading a pre-written script. They say the argument is valid but have no way to have reached that conclusion via an objective analysis and evaluation.

Yet here we are at least trying to be logical and evaluating each other arguments.
He seems to be conflating the restrictions of physical laws and conditions with absolute determinism. The fact that a great deal of quantum mechanical interactions seem to be probabilistic in nature would tend to cast doubt on the validity of that conflation.

At root, logic is simply the formal study of how we explain the world. That we can and do attempt to explain the world is an outgrowth of the faculties of perception and cognition, both of which -- all evidence to date shows -- are tied to physical brain function.

Quote:And it gets worse, as we cannot say that we know anything since that would be part of that pre-written script as well.

A physical only universe leaves us with no logic, and no knowledge."
We only have knowledge insofar as the explanations we develop for observed phenomena have useful predictive power. All knowledge is qualified. When we reach a point at which the predictive power of our current knowledge seems to fail, we refine, improve, or change our explanations to have better predictive power, and our knowledge advances. There is no particular reason to believe that there is a finite endpoint to this process, which nonetheless is not outside the physical universe.

Quote:I'm looking at this and just in my gut it seems wrong, but I cannot articulate why. Anyone out there seem to see a flaw? My first thought is that logic isn't a thing, it's a set of rules to coherently rationalize the universe.

The basic flaw -- as others have pointed out -- is that his argument stems from a logical fallacy: argumentum ad ignorantiam, the appeal to ignorance.

The other flaws just sort of naturally arise from that flawed starting point.

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Dr H

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