Does love exist or can be sustained? Does familiarity breed contempt?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-01-2016, 11:41 AM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2016 11:48 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Does love exist or can be sustained? Does familiarity breed contempt?
(21-01-2016 09:17 AM)julep Wrote:  
(21-01-2016 07:55 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I wonder about those here who believe love doesn't exist, as to what sort of love they've afforded to others, and more importantly what sort of love has been afforded to them? Some folks grew up in shitty homes, with shitty parents, who didn't know the next thing about love, and probably never really loved their children. If such children grew up to believe that love doesn't exists, or to take an overtly pessimistic and cynical view of it, that's understandable. I guess the same can be said of children of divorce, or those who are divorced themselves. It seems difficult not to be jaded by such circumstances.

But I think for those who had parents who loved them deeply and unconditionally, friendships, and bonds that exemplify this sort of love, that sacrificial and hard working, willing to do a of myriad petty, unsexy things every day, there can be no doubt of it's reality. It may not be the sort portrayed in a movie, but it's ultimately more profound and meaningful, and difficult to express in words.

I guess you're trying to be understanding, but I think that is still kind of a demeaning view. Many kids of narcissistic, unloving/abusive, divorced parents have proved able to have sustained, loving relationships with our spouses, children, and friends.

I know quite a few fuck-ups from "stable" families where everybody else turned out okay, so I don't think nurture is the sole deciding factor in attitudes towards love or emotional stability, as you seem to be implying.

I don't think it's the sole deciding factor, and clearly people often do rise above their own particular circumstances, beyond the hands they've been dealt, it's just harder. Statistically if you have a close and intimate relationship with your parents, and siblings the more likely you are to be in a happy marriage yourself. If you're a product of divorce, the more likely you are to get divorced yourself. If your most immediate relationships are contemptuous, it's likely to have life long implications.

If you've never been a recipient of any true and authentic sense of love, it just becomes all together harder to ever acquire that sense of love yourself. You're left to your own devices to find what in some ways is an elusive enigma. A love which was tragically deprived to you, and which may in fact remain an unknown all your life. That it might be easy to believe doesn't exist.

People dealt such cards, but manage to eventually find that which they lacked all their life, are sort of the like the kid from the projects who ends up becoming a doctor. It happens, and it's a commendable feat, particularly given the circumstances.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-01-2016, 12:22 PM
RE: Does love exist or can be sustained? Does familiarity breed contempt?
(21-01-2016 11:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-01-2016 09:17 AM)julep Wrote:  I guess you're trying to be understanding, but I think that is still kind of a demeaning view. Many kids of narcissistic, unloving/abusive, divorced parents have proved able to have sustained, loving relationships with our spouses, children, and friends.

I know quite a few fuck-ups from "stable" families where everybody else turned out okay, so I don't think nurture is the sole deciding factor in attitudes towards love or emotional stability, as you seem to be implying.

I don't think it's the sole deciding factor, and clearly people often do rise above their own particular circumstances, beyond the hands they've been dealt, it's just harder. Statistically if you have a close and intimate relationship with your parents, and siblings the more likely you are to be in a happy marriage yourself. If you're a product of divorce, the more likely you are to get divorced yourself. If your most immediate relationships are contemptuous, it's likely to have life long implications.

If you've never been a recipient of any true and authentic sense of love, it just becomes all together harder to ever acquire that sense of love yourself. You're left to your own devices to find what in some ways is an elusive enigma. A love which was tragically deprived to you, and which may in fact remain an unknown all your life. That it might be easy to believe doesn't exist.

People dealt such cards, but manage to eventually find that which they lacked all their life, are sort of the like the kid from the projects who ends up becoming a doctor. It happens, and it's a commendable feat, particularly given the circumstances.

I would disagree that it's anywhere near as rare as you claim. Certainly most marriages that end in divorce do not do so because one or both partners are sociopaths or narcissists, so most children of divorce still have plenty of experiences of long-term, unconditional love from their parents and others. It's true (or so I've read) that children of divorce tend to be more cautious about entering marriage, but that doesn't mean they don't have the skills to manage a long-term relationship. Those skills are basic human social skills, and there is nothing special or unique about them.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-01-2016, 12:44 PM
RE: Does love exist or can be sustained? Does familiarity breed contempt?
(21-01-2016 10:36 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Do you have a source for it? I honestly tried looking and the closest I got from this is that it has more economics. http://www.psychologicalscience.org/inde...hoice.html

Is there any psychology papers that I am missing, if so I would like to see it.

My English isn't cooperating right now and I can't find something specific, but I found this, in which you can find these interesting bits (with studies cited):

Gender beliefs are also cultural schemas for interpreting or making sense of the social world. As such, they represent what we think “most people” believe or accept as true about the categories of “men” and “women.” In North America, at least, men are widely thought to be more competent than women, except when performing “feminine” tasks (Conway, Pizzamiglio, and Mount 1996; Wagner and Berger 1997; Williams and Best 1990).

As we will see below, substantial evidence indicates that mathematical tasks are often stereotyped as “masculine” tasks. Even individuals who do not personally believe that men are more competent than women are likely aware that this belief exists in the culture and expect that others will treat them according to it. This expectation has been shown to modify behavior and bias judgments, as will be described below (Foschi 1996; Steele 1997).

Holding stereotypic beliefs about activities, such as mathematics, has been shown to influence the attitudes and career aspirations of young people (Eccles et al. 1999).

Recent research by Steele (1997) and Lovaglia et al. (1998) further suggest that when individuals know others expect people of their social category (e.g., women, African-Americans) to do relatively poorly on a task, this knowledge creates anxiety and actually leads to poorer performances.

The results of this study demonstrate that widely shared cultural beliefs attached to various tasks affect not only how individuals are channeled into particular activities and subsequent career trajectories by others, but also how individuals “self-select” into occupationally relevant activities.

"Behind every great pirate, there is a great butt."
-Guybrush Threepwood-
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-01-2016, 01:15 PM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2016 01:24 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Does love exist or can be sustained? Does familiarity breed contempt?
(21-01-2016 12:22 PM)julep Wrote:  I would disagree that it's anywhere near as rare as you claim. Certainly most marriages that end in divorce do not do so because one or both partners are sociopaths or narcissists, so most children of divorce still have plenty of experiences of long-term, unconditional love from their parents and others. It's true (or so I've read) that children of divorce tend to be more cautious about entering marriage, but that doesn't mean they don't have the skills to manage a long-term relationship. Those skills are basic human social skills, and there is nothing special or unique about them.

The facts of the matter is if your parents are divorced, you're 40% more likely to get divorce yourself than those whose parents aren't divorced. Close to half of all marriages end up in divorce. If you get married again after your first divorce, your second marriage is even more likely than your first to end in divorce.

While we all might have some basic human social skills, they haven't particularly served us well in maintaining long-term relationships, at least for a good half of our population. Basic human social skills, have allowed us to tolerate each other, live without wanting to kill each other, make some practical agreements, but as to maintaining a deep and meaningful long term relationship, that itself appears to have proven quite difficult.

When we see people who have maintained a loving long term relationship with each other, we don't see them as a norm, but as folks who found something that appears rare. But our basic human relationship, our most common ones, even with friends and family, are not particularly a thing to envy, though they tend to be as decent as it can get for many of us.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-01-2016, 01:18 PM
RE: Does love exist or can be sustained? Does familiarity breed contempt?
(21-01-2016 12:44 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(21-01-2016 10:36 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Do you have a source for it? I honestly tried looking and the closest I got from this is that it has more economics. http://www.psychologicalscience.org/inde...hoice.html

Is there any psychology papers that I am missing, if so I would like to see it.

My English isn't cooperating right now and I can't find something specific, but I found this, in which you can find these interesting bits (with studies cited):

Gender beliefs are also cultural schemas for interpreting or making sense of the social world. As such, they represent what we think “most people” believe or accept as true about the categories of “men” and “women.” In North America, at least, men are widely thought to be more competent than women, except when performing “feminine” tasks (Conway, Pizzamiglio, and Mount 1996; Wagner and Berger 1997; Williams and Best 1990).

As we will see below, substantial evidence indicates that mathematical tasks are often stereotyped as “masculine” tasks. Even individuals who do not personally believe that men are more competent than women are likely aware that this belief exists in the culture and expect that others will treat them according to it. This expectation has been shown to modify behavior and bias judgments, as will be described below (Foschi 1996; Steele 1997).

Holding stereotypic beliefs about activities, such as mathematics, has been shown to influence the attitudes and career aspirations of young people (Eccles et al. 1999).

Recent research by Steele (1997) and Lovaglia et al. (1998) further suggest that when individuals know others expect people of their social category (e.g., women, African-Americans) to do relatively poorly on a task, this knowledge creates anxiety and actually leads to poorer performances.

The results of this study demonstrate that widely shared cultural beliefs attached to various tasks affect not only how individuals are channeled into particular activities and subsequent career trajectories by others, but also how individuals “self-select” into occupationally relevant activities.

Thanks fam, it ain't psychology, but I will read it.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOW_Ioi2wtuPa88FvBmnBgQ my youtube
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Metazoa Zeke's post
21-01-2016, 02:55 PM
RE: Does love exist or can be sustained? Does familiarity breed contempt?
(21-01-2016 01:18 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(21-01-2016 12:44 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  My English isn't cooperating right now and I can't find something specific, but I found this, in which you can find these interesting bits (with studies cited):

Gender beliefs are also cultural schemas for interpreting or making sense of the social world. As such, they represent what we think “most people” believe or accept as true about the categories of “men” and “women.” In North America, at least, men are widely thought to be more competent than women, except when performing “feminine” tasks (Conway, Pizzamiglio, and Mount 1996; Wagner and Berger 1997; Williams and Best 1990).

As we will see below, substantial evidence indicates that mathematical tasks are often stereotyped as “masculine” tasks. Even individuals who do not personally believe that men are more competent than women are likely aware that this belief exists in the culture and expect that others will treat them according to it. This expectation has been shown to modify behavior and bias judgments, as will be described below (Foschi 1996; Steele 1997).

Holding stereotypic beliefs about activities, such as mathematics, has been shown to influence the attitudes and career aspirations of young people (Eccles et al. 1999).

Recent research by Steele (1997) and Lovaglia et al. (1998) further suggest that when individuals know others expect people of their social category (e.g., women, African-Americans) to do relatively poorly on a task, this knowledge creates anxiety and actually leads to poorer performances.

The results of this study demonstrate that widely shared cultural beliefs attached to various tasks affect not only how individuals are channeled into particular activities and subsequent career trajectories by others, but also how individuals “self-select” into occupationally relevant activities.

Thanks fam, it ain't psychology, but I will read it.

Those are by now pretty unambiguous theses when it comes to social science. As for field, I'm not sure why sociological research would be published in psychological contexts...

Anyway, here are some publications from just the last month on the general topic area.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes cjlr's post
21-01-2016, 03:59 PM
RE: Does love exist or can be sustained? Does familiarity breed contempt?
(21-01-2016 01:15 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-01-2016 12:22 PM)julep Wrote:  I would disagree that it's anywhere near as rare as you claim. Certainly most marriages that end in divorce do not do so because one or both partners are sociopaths or narcissists, so most children of divorce still have plenty of experiences of long-term, unconditional love from their parents and others. It's true (or so I've read) that children of divorce tend to be more cautious about entering marriage, but that doesn't mean they don't have the skills to manage a long-term relationship. Those skills are basic human social skills, and there is nothing special or unique about them.

The facts of the matter is if your parents are divorced, you're 40% more likely to get divorce yourself than those whose parents aren't divorced. Close to half of all marriages end up in divorce. If you get married again after your first divorce, your second marriage is even more likely than your first to end in divorce.

While we all might have some basic human social skills, they haven't particularly served us well in maintaining long-term relationships, at least for a good half of our population. Basic human social skills, have allowed us to tolerate each other, live without wanting to kill each other, make some practical agreements, but as to maintaining a deep and meaningful long term relationship, that itself appears to have proven quite difficult.

When we see people who have maintained a loving long term relationship with each other, we don't see them as a norm, but as folks who found something that appears rare. But our basic human relationship, our most common ones, even with friends and family, are not particularly a thing to envy, though they tend to be as decent as it can get for many of us.

I'm a child of divorce, married to my one and only husband for 20 years this coming Wednesday. I'm my husband's second marriage. My father is divorced from his first wife and married a fellow divorcee; they have been married for about 22 years now. My husband is a once-divorced child of divorce, but his brother and sister have both been married only once, both will hit the 20-year mark in the next couple of years.

I have a lot of friends who have are still married to their first spouse and have been married for 15, 20, 25 years. In fact, most of my married friends have never been divorced, even the ones with divorced parents.

I don't think failing at one marriage means someone is incapable of sustaining a long-term relationship. Failing at two or three, yes, that might mean that for that individual, other relationships turn out to be more important, but it has nothing to do with whether "true love" can be experienced and sustained by that person.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes julep's post
21-01-2016, 06:20 PM
RE: Does love exist or can be sustained? Does familiarity breed contempt?
(21-01-2016 02:55 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(21-01-2016 01:18 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Thanks fam, it ain't psychology, but I will read it.

Those are by now pretty unambiguous theses when it comes to social science. As for field, I'm not sure why sociological research would be published in psychological contexts...

Anyway, here are some publications from just the last month on the general topic area.

Damn, I hate papers I gotta pay for, but they look good. And I do hate sociology, no matter who it is cited by, but what I hate shouldn't matter in the game of learning.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOW_Ioi2wtuPa88FvBmnBgQ my youtube
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-01-2016, 06:41 PM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2016 06:57 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Does love exist or can be sustained? Does familiarity breed contempt?
(15-01-2016 08:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-01-2016 06:51 AM)DLJ Wrote:  It exists.

It's just not very useful. An evolutionary misstep.

Drinking Beverage

Actually, it is very useful - otherwise it would have been discarded by natural selection.

It is a mechanism to insure the raising of the young of the species.

cough, cough ensure cough cough

Oh, and did I already mention that love is not a victory march.




#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
22-01-2016, 07:02 AM
RE: Does love exist or can be sustained? Does familiarity breed contempt?
(21-01-2016 03:59 PM)julep Wrote:  
(21-01-2016 01:15 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The facts of the matter is if your parents are divorced, you're 40% more likely to get divorce yourself than those whose parents aren't divorced. Close to half of all marriages end up in divorce. If you get married again after your first divorce, your second marriage is even more likely than your first to end in divorce.

While we all might have some basic human social skills, they haven't particularly served us well in maintaining long-term relationships, at least for a good half of our population. Basic human social skills, have allowed us to tolerate each other, live without wanting to kill each other, make some practical agreements, but as to maintaining a deep and meaningful long term relationship, that itself appears to have proven quite difficult.

When we see people who have maintained a loving long term relationship with each other, we don't see them as a norm, but as folks who found something that appears rare. But our basic human relationship, our most common ones, even with friends and family, are not particularly a thing to envy, though they tend to be as decent as it can get for many of us.

I'm a child of divorce, married to my one and only husband for 20 years this coming Wednesday. I'm my husband's second marriage. My father is divorced from his first wife and married a fellow divorcee; they have been married for about 22 years now. My husband is a once-divorced child of divorce, but his brother and sister have both been married only once, both will hit the 20-year mark in the next couple of years.

I have a lot of friends who have are still married to their first spouse and have been married for 15, 20, 25 years. In fact, most of my married friends have never been divorced, even the ones with divorced parents.

I don't think failing at one marriage means someone is incapable of sustaining a long-term relationship. Failing at two or three, yes, that might mean that for that individual, other relationships turn out to be more important, but it has nothing to do with whether "true love" can be experienced and sustained by that person.

It's basically the odds of landing on heads on a coin flip. You can point out all the folks you know that landed on heads, but there still an almost equivalent amount who had the unfortunate luck of landing on tails.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: