Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
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18-01-2016, 06:56 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 12:45 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 12:40 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Seen the research before. What's the point in having me re read it?

I do not think you understand it.

However I have concluded you are a troll and am done with you. I'm too old to deal with you.

BTW, you never answered my Rome post showing buildings and statues dating around 2000 years ago, proving existence prior to your unfortunate birth.
Sorry I fell asleep.
Finding any evidence about things that existed before you became self aware normally requires the assumption that reality existed in a certain manner before you became self aware
because
if one is attempting to prove that reality can exist before you become self aware it is intellectually dishonest to assume the conclusion as the premise.

If you have another way of testing it without the presupposition then what is it?

Eg. An archeological find about a roman tool in your presence the instant you were born still requires the assumption that reality exists before you were born.
Carbon dating as well.
History books as well.

Regardless of how many pieces of Evidence you find which alludes to a reality that could have existed before you became self aware the probability will always remain 50/50 that it did or did not exist.
When given 2 possibilities and no more data the chances are always 50/50
If you give me 2 possibilities and assumed data then the answer will always be an assumed statistic & not a real one.

You are not stating that reality is assumed to exist before you became self aware.
You are positively asserting that reality absolutely did exist before you became self aware. That statement is intellectually dishonest because it is based on an assumption.
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18-01-2016, 07:01 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 02:47 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(17-01-2016 11:53 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
I never defined the thought process.
...

I know you didn't.

It's just that you are obviously well read and articulate so I was asking for your thoughts on the thinking of thoughts.

(17-01-2016 11:53 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
I don't have to define how something works to know that it exists.
...

Indeed not but it's the kinda thing that interests me.

A 'thought' is an output of a process.

Understanding that process (how it works) i.e. activities triggered by some stimuli (inputs) would tell us something about the properties of those inputs (real or virtual).

To me, that's a worthwhile use of my time (assuming time is real). Big Grin

(17-01-2016 11:53 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
Science claims there is physical evidence that show the thinking process. (electrical firing synapses). Even if there wasn't we already interact with our environment so thoughts would have still been classified as real.

OK. Thanks.

'Real' in the sense that consciousness is real?

Like numbers are real?

Real or imaginary ... there's the rub.

Consider
Numbers are more like adjectives.
They help describe what reality is but do not in any way physically interact with it. Interaction with reality is one of the requirements for determining if something exists.
It is considered an abstract concept. A man made construct for the purpose of understanding.
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18-01-2016, 07:01 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(17-01-2016 05:54 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(17-01-2016 05:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  Facts are facts and perception is perception.

They are not the same concept.

What are we talking about here?
It was once considered a fact that the Earth was flat & Pluto was a planet.
What are you talking about?

That would be perception. It was "considered" a fact. Doesn't make it a fact.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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18-01-2016, 07:03 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 07:01 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(17-01-2016 05:54 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It was once considered a fact that the Earth was flat & Pluto was a planet.
What are you talking about?

That would be perception. It was "considered" a fact. Doesn't make it a fact.
What makes it a fact?
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18-01-2016, 07:14 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 07:03 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 07:01 AM)Dom Wrote:  That would be perception. It was "considered" a fact. Doesn't make it a fact.
What makes it a fact?

Empirical evidence. And even then it may not be a fact. We are extremely limited by perception.

Of course there are also facts we can perceive - it's definitely raining outside.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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18-01-2016, 07:18 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2016 07:22 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 07:14 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 07:03 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  What makes it a fact?

Empirical evidence. And even then it may not be a fact. We are extremely limited by perception.

Of course there are also facts we can perceive - it's definitely raining outside.
Only definite within the realm (I like to say subset) of perception or thought.
Outside the realm of perception or thought you cannot use the word definitely. Only possiblely.
Since this topic discusses what exists outside the subset of perception, facts would only be an assumption outside the sphere.
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18-01-2016, 07:41 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2016 07:56 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(17-01-2016 11:36 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-01-2016 11:32 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  All Reality = The Set (partially unknowable)
Thoughts = Subset of All Reality (knowable)

The "Roman thing" was never outside of the "subset of thought" in the first place. Therefore it did not need to get in.

You've totally changed the goal posts.

Quote:My honest answer to "Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?"
No. Without "my" thoughts "my" reality cannot exist.

The Roman thing was TOTALLY outside YOUR thoughts and reality BEFORE you learned it and became aware of it's true reality.

Was that supposed to be a "deepity" ? Without your thoughts your reality can't exist ?
Well "duh". No shit Sherlock.
Is this the kind of shit philosophers sit around and do ?
That statement seems to be a presupposition that a reality existed before you became self aware.
How else did you arrive at the conclusion?
The Premise & Conclusion are the same.
It's a Fallacy.
If you don't like what Philosophers do, no one is forcing you to become one.

Tell me where the goal posts lie so that I may discern how my depiction of Reality is flawed.
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18-01-2016, 07:43 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
Let's use an extreme example of perception, a cross species one.

My dog and I visit a friend who has a sofa. I see the sofa and I see a brown, newish piece of furniture. It is the soft, puffy kind and looks super comfortable.

My dog sees a comfortable place too, but he perceives that someone ate popcorn there last night and farted, and that it was the young male in the household. He perceives that several people have been sitting there in the past couple of weeks, including my host. He perceives that someone had sex on that couch recently. Also, someone ate soup that contained chicken, peas, noodles, salt, pepper, Worchestershire (sp) sauce and whatnot.

I can't perceive the things my dog perceives. Does that mean they are not facts? Are you saying that the existence of the sofa itself is not a fact?

Where do you draw the line between perception and fact?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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18-01-2016, 07:52 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2016 07:57 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 07:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  Let's use an extreme example of perception, a cross species one.

My dog and I visit a friend who has a sofa. I see the sofa and I see a brown, newish piece of furniture. It is the soft, puffy kind and looks super comfortable.

My dog sees a comfortable place too, but he perceives that someone ate popcorn there last night and farted, and that it was the young male in the household. He perceives that several people have been sitting there in the past couple of weeks, including my host. He perceives that someone had sex on that couch recently. Also, someone ate soup that contained chicken, peas, noodles, salt, pepper, Worchestershire (sp) sauce and whatnot.

I can't perceive the things my dog perceives. Does that mean they are not facts? Are you saying that the existence of the sofa itself is not a fact?

Where do you draw the line between perception and fact?
You are applying empathy & a bit of omniscience. They fall under the category of Philosophy more so than Science because they are abstract concepts.
Both Empathy & Omniscience requires a presupposition and the very definition of a fact does not allow for presuppositions.

If it falls within the realm of your own self awareness then you can claim it as a fact, but only within that realm.
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18-01-2016, 07:56 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 07:52 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 07:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  Let's use an extreme example of perception, a cross species one.

My dog and I visit a friend who has a sofa. I see the sofa and I see a brown, newish piece of furniture. It is the soft, puffy kind and looks super comfortable.

My dog sees a comfortable place too, but he perceives that someone ate popcorn there last night and farted, and that it was the young male in the household. He perceives that several people have been sitting there in the past couple of weeks, including my host. He perceives that someone had sex on that couch recently. Also, someone ate soup that contained chicken, peas, noodles, salt, pepper, Worchestershire (sp) sauce and whatnot.

I can't perceive the things my dog perceives. Does that mean they are not facts? Are you saying that the existence of the sofa itself is not a fact?

Where do you draw the line between perception and fact?
You are applying empathy & a bit of omniscience. They fall under the category of Philosophy more so than Science.
Both Empathy & Omniscience requires a presupposition and the very definition of a fact does not allow for presuppositions.

How am I applying empathy and omniscience? I am using what we know about dog's perceptions based on their sense of scent. My dog smells all this and much more. His perception of everything differs hugely from mine.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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