Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
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18-01-2016, 07:59 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 07:03 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 07:01 AM)Dom Wrote:  That would be perception. It was "considered" a fact. Doesn't make it a fact.
What makes it a fact?

Justified true belief.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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18-01-2016, 08:10 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2016 08:21 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 07:56 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 07:52 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  You are applying empathy & a bit of omniscience. They fall under the category of Philosophy more so than Science.
Both Empathy & Omniscience requires a presupposition and the very definition of a fact does not allow for presuppositions.

How am I applying empathy and omniscience? I am using what we know about dog's perceptions based on their sense of scent. My dog smells all this and much more. His perception of everything differs hugely from mine.
Empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
Omniscience: the capacity to know everything that there is to know

To state that you know what the dog is capable of perceiving is one thing & quite possibly true. Knowing what the dog is capable of is considered a fact.
To state that you believe or know the dog is perceiving something is called empathy or omniscience (respectively). Where do you go from knowing what the dog is capable of to knowing what it is actually perceiving for absolutely certain? It requires an assumption.
In this regard you can never truly know what reality exists as outside of your own self awareness. You can only guess.
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18-01-2016, 08:19 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 07:59 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 07:03 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  What makes it a fact?

Justified true belief.
What does that mean?
Is this your definition?

A fact by definition is:
a thing that is indisputably the case.

I am currently discussing the word fact as defined above.
We would have to start a new discussion to discuss your alternative meaning.
Can we agree to use the above popular definition for now?
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18-01-2016, 08:31 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 08:19 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 07:59 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Justified true belief.
What does that mean?
Is this your definition?

A fact by definition is:
a thing that is indisputably the case.

I am currently discussing the word fact as defined above.
We would have to start a new discussion to discuss your alternative meaning.
Can we agree to use the above popular definition for now?

It's not "my" definition. It's a long standing proposition of study into how you determine when a claim is known. (back since Plato) and constantly having been consistently studied and used in many basis even in novel ways into our current age in philosophical inquiries.

Because you don't know it, doesn't make it "not popular" it is an intensely popular definition. It's one of the most widely known concepts in epistemology.

Yes, Justified true belief would be an system you use in this sense to determine if something is "a thing that is indisputably the case"

There are great studies into where the flaws and possible confusions of what it takes to find something really true or not. Like the Problem of Induction or the

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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18-01-2016, 08:43 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 08:10 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 07:56 AM)Dom Wrote:  How am I applying empathy and omniscience? I am using what we know about dog's perceptions based on their sense of scent. My dog smells all this and much more. His perception of everything differs hugely from mine.
Empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
Omniscience: the capacity to know everything that there is to know

To state that you know what the dog is capable of perceiving is one thing & quite possibly true. Knowing what the dog is capable of is considered a fact.
To state that you believe or know the dog is perceiving something is called empathy or omniscience (respectively). Where do you go from knowing what the dog is capable of to knowing what it is actually perceiving for absolutely certain? It requires an assumption.
In this regard you can never truly know what reality exists as outside of your own self awareness. You can only guess.

Actually, as an ex canine trainer I do know what the dog can and cannot perceive through his nose. Not every dog will perceive all this, because not every dog bothers to pay attention or has the quality scent sense to distinguish all these scents, but police canines certainly are able to distinguish all these scents and more. Everything sheds particles and while we are not able to distinguish their scent, the canine can. We smell chicken soup, they smell each individual ingredient.

It's not an assumption, and it requires no omniscience or empathy.

Be that as it may, just humor me and assume it is the way I laid it out.

So, my dog and I see this sofa. Our perceptions differ hugely, much more than the perceptions of only humans would differ.

Are you saying that only what I perceive is fact, that both perceive facts, or that none of it is factual?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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18-01-2016, 09:04 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2016 09:19 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 08:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 08:10 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
Omniscience: the capacity to know everything that there is to know

To state that you know what the dog is capable of perceiving is one thing & quite possibly true. Knowing what the dog is capable of is considered a fact.
To state that you believe or know the dog is perceiving something is called empathy or omniscience (respectively). Where do you go from knowing what the dog is capable of to knowing what it is actually perceiving for absolutely certain? It requires an assumption.
In this regard you can never truly know what reality exists as outside of your own self awareness. You can only guess.

Actually, as an ex canine trainer I do know what the dog can and cannot perceive through his nose. Not every dog will perceive all this, because not every dog bothers to pay attention or has the quality scent sense to distinguish all these scents, but police canines certainly are able to distinguish all these scents and more. Everything sheds particles and while we are not able to distinguish their scent, the canine can. We smell chicken soup, they smell each individual ingredient.

It's not an assumption, and it requires no omniscience or empathy.

Be that as it may, just humor me and assume it is the way I laid it out.

So, my dog and I see this sofa. Our perceptions differ hugely, much more than the perceptions of only humans would differ.

Are you saying that only what I perceive is fact, that both perceive facts, or that none of it is factual?
Your claim of absolute certainty of a dog's perception requires me to believe you have somehow gained the awareness of the dog into your own consciousness at the point in time.
There is a distinction between knowing something for absolute certainty and knowing something for less than absolute certainty.
When you use the word know here which one are you referring to? Absolute certainty or less than absolute certainty?

You may be tempted to say I believe that we can never have facts. This is not the case.
Absolute certainty is not a pre requisite of something being a fact.

A fact is simply something that is indisputable.
If it is logically disputable then it cannot be a fact.
Consider the following:
At one point in time we believed the Earth was flat & it was considered a fact. It was considered a fact only because at the point in time it was logically indisputable based on the Evidence provided.
Today we believe the Earth to be round & it is now considered to be a fact. It is only considered a fact because at this point in time no one can dispute it due to the overwhelming evidence provided (within the realm of our self aware reality).
If in the next 10 years we find indisputable evidence that the Earth is not round then it would no longer be considered a fact at that point in time & a different fact would be accepted.

Facts have to do with indisputability & not absolute certainty.

I hope I have cleared up the Myth.

I will logically dispute any claim that you know what the dog is perceiving with absolute certainty, unless you can prove to me you have somehow obtained agency over the awareness of the dog.
Absolute certainty is a very hard topic to defend.
This is why Agnosticism feels like the most honest position one can take.
Thoughts are the only exception I have found thus far.
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18-01-2016, 09:20 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 09:04 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 08:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  Actually, as an ex canine trainer I do know what the dog can and cannot perceive through his nose. Not every dog will perceive all this, because not every dog bothers to pay attention or has the quality scent sense to distinguish all these scents, but police canines certainly are able to distinguish all these scents and more. Everything sheds particles and while we are not able to distinguish their scent, the canine can. We smell chicken soup, they smell each individual ingredient.

It's not an assumption, and it requires no omniscience or empathy.

Be that as it may, just humor me and assume it is the way I laid it out.

So, my dog and I see this sofa. Our perceptions differ hugely, much more than the perceptions of only humans would differ.

Are you saying that only what I perceive is fact, that both perceive facts, or that none of it is factual?
Your claim of absolute certainty of a dog's perception requires me to believe you have somehow gained the awareness of the dog into your own consciousness at the point in time.
There is a distinction between knowing something for absolute certainty and knowing something for less than absolute certainty.
When you use the word know here which one are you referring to? Absolute certainty or less than absolute certainty?

In any regard all of this is quite arbitrary to the discussion we are having about facts.
Absolute certainty is not a pre requisite of something being a fact.

A fact is simply something that is indisputable.
If it is logically disputable then it cannot be a fact.
Consider the following:
At one point in time we believed the Earth was flat & it was considered a fact. It was considered a fact only because at the point in time it was logically indisputable based on the Evidence provided.
Today we believe the Earth to be round & it is now considered to be a fact. It is only considered a fact because at this point in time no one can dispute it due to the overwhelming evidence provided (within the realm of our self aware reality).
If in the next 10 years we find indisputable evidence that the Earth is not round then it would no longer be considered a fact at that point in time & a different fact would be accepted.

Facts have to do with indisputability & not absolute certainty.

I hope I have cleared up the Myth.

This is getting convoluted. I will consider my take on the dog's perception as fact when I encounter him making the correct calls during training. Like I said, dog's perceptions will differ, as do people's. But this is besides the point. We are assuming my vision is good enough to be the basis of my perception, and his sense of smell is acute enough to render his perception.

My question was:

Are you saying that only what I perceive is fact, that both perceive facts, or that none of it is factual?

I think you answered with "none".

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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18-01-2016, 09:58 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 09:20 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 09:04 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Your claim of absolute certainty of a dog's perception requires me to believe you have somehow gained the awareness of the dog into your own consciousness at the point in time.
There is a distinction between knowing something for absolute certainty and knowing something for less than absolute certainty.
When you use the word know here which one are you referring to? Absolute certainty or less than absolute certainty?

In any regard all of this is quite arbitrary to the discussion we are having about facts.
Absolute certainty is not a pre requisite of something being a fact.

A fact is simply something that is indisputable.
If it is logically disputable then it cannot be a fact.
Consider the following:
At one point in time we believed the Earth was flat & it was considered a fact. It was considered a fact only because at the point in time it was logically indisputable based on the Evidence provided.
Today we believe the Earth to be round & it is now considered to be a fact. It is only considered a fact because at this point in time no one can dispute it due to the overwhelming evidence provided (within the realm of our self aware reality).
If in the next 10 years we find indisputable evidence that the Earth is not round then it would no longer be considered a fact at that point in time & a different fact would be accepted.

Facts have to do with indisputability & not absolute certainty.

I hope I have cleared up the Myth.

This is getting convoluted. I will consider my take on the dog's perception as fact when I encounter him making the correct calls during training. Like I said, dog's perceptions will differ, as do people's. But this is besides the point. We are assuming my vision is good enough to be the basis of my perception, and his sense of smell is acute enough to render his perception.

My question was:

Are you saying that only what I perceive is fact, that both perceive facts, or that none of it is factual?

I think you answered with "none".
I can dispute your perception of what the dog sees and you would not be able to defend it without actually being the dog.
How do you know that what you see as Blue & Red is not what the dog sees as Green & Orange?

Consider this:
There are people in this world that see a different shade of red than you do when looking at the same object.
Suppose they make up the majority of people.
Which shade of red is the true shade of red?
What if the Majority of people don't even see red?
What if no one ever saw Red ever in the history of the universe?
Does that mean that Red does not exist?

Your reality is highly dependent on perspective because perspective is the base of all self awareness.
If you cannot become the dog then you cannot make a claim of absolute certainty within your reality.
No one is asking you to make a claim of absolute certainty from another's perspective. Any such claim would be dishonest unless you can take agency of their perspective.
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18-01-2016, 10:03 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
How did we get from AgShane not acknowledging that all his thoughts are useless/pointless/undefinable to not being able to define colours?

We've been down the colour rodeo before and it's tiring and boring.
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18-01-2016, 10:07 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 09:58 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 09:20 AM)Dom Wrote:  This is getting convoluted. I will consider my take on the dog's perception as fact when I encounter him making the correct calls during training. Like I said, dog's perceptions will differ, as do people's. But this is besides the point. We are assuming my vision is good enough to be the basis of my perception, and his sense of smell is acute enough to render his perception.

My question was:

Are you saying that only what I perceive is fact, that both perceive facts, or that none of it is factual?

I think you answered with "none".
I can dispute your perception of what the dog sees and you would not be able to defend it without actually being the dog.
How do you know that what you see as Blue & Red is not what the dog sees as Green & Orange?

Consider this:
There are people in this world that see a different shade of red than you do when looking at the same object.
Suppose they make up the majority of people.
Which shade of red is the true shade of red?
What if the Majority of people don't even see red?
What if no one ever saw Red ever in the history of the universe?
Does that mean that Red does not exist?

Your reality is highly dependent on perspective because perspective is the base of all self awareness.
If you cannot become the dog then you cannot make a claim of absolute certainty within your reality.
No one is asking you to make a claim of absolute certainty from another's perspective. Any such claim would be dishonest unless you can take agency of their perspective.

You keep arguing the dog bit, which you have little to no knowledge of it seems. http://dog-vision.com/ It is totally irrelevant.

I said: We are assuming my vision is good enough to be the basis of my perception, and his sense of smell is acute enough to render his perception.

You are not answering my question.

Are you saying that only what I perceive is fact, that both perceive facts, or that none of it is factual?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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