Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
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18-01-2016, 10:08 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:03 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  How did we get from AgShane not acknowledging that all his thoughts are useless/pointless/undefinable to not being able to define colours?

We've been down the colour rodeo before and it's tiring and boring.

Indeed we have. Yawn. The Problem of Color Realism

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18-01-2016, 10:10 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 09:58 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 09:20 AM)Dom Wrote:  This is getting convoluted. I will consider my take on the dog's perception as fact when I encounter him making the correct calls during training. Like I said, dog's perceptions will differ, as do people's. But this is besides the point. We are assuming my vision is good enough to be the basis of my perception, and his sense of smell is acute enough to render his perception.

My question was:

Are you saying that only what I perceive is fact, that both perceive facts, or that none of it is factual?

I think you answered with "none".
I can dispute your perception of what the dog sees and you would not be able to defend it without actually being the dog.
How do you know that what you see as Blue & Red is not what the dog sees as Green & Orange?

Consider this:
There are people in this world that see a different shade of red than you do when looking at the same object.
Suppose they make up the majority of people.
Which shade of red is the true shade of red?
What if the Majority of people don't even see red?
What if no one ever saw Red ever in the history of the universe?
Does that mean that Red does not exist?

Your reality is highly dependent on perspective because perspective is the base of all self awareness.
If you cannot become the dog then you cannot make a claim of absolute certainty within your reality.
No one is asking you to make a claim of absolute certainty from another's perspective. Any such claim would be dishonest unless you can take agency of their perspective.

By understanding the physiology of the dog's eye, one can determine that dogs are colorblind in the red/yellow/green part of the spectrum.

The rest is a confusion of 'qualia', itself an incoherent concept.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-01-2016, 10:13 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  The rest is a confusion of 'qualia', itself an incoherent concept.

My motorcycle begs to differ. Tongue

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18-01-2016, 10:17 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(17-01-2016 09:34 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
For the sake of simplicity "I" or "my" refers to the author(s) of this post.

My life Cycle as a thought aware being starts after my brain developed and I am able to process this physical world's interaction with my senses. I do not know for a certainty what exists before I became thought aware. Reality before thought awareness is therefore infinitely unknowable based on individual perspective. It is just as likely to believe that there is no reality before thought awareness as it is to believe that there is one. Any statement I make which claims absolute truth requires foreknowledge of reality before thought awareness, except one.
I know reality exists because thoughts exist. Thoughts being simply "the process of thinking". Thoughts are the only known true reality.
I think therefore I am.

By the above Logic the following statements are dishonest for me to say:
I am absolutely certain God(s) exist(s)
I am absolutely certain God(s) do/does not exist.

My honest answer to "Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?"
No. Without "my" thoughts "my" reality cannot exist.

There is no such thing as my reality or your reality, there is only reality, the realm of things that are real. No, the realm of things that are real is not dependent on our awareness of it. Our awareness of it depends on it. We know this by direct perception. People die all the time yet reality continues to be real.

This recognition has profound implications for the rest of knowledge. You're having trouble because you don't recognize explicitly that the objects of consciousness are primary in the relationship between the knowing subject and its objects. It has profound implications for all acts of awareness and cognition precisely because all of these acts involve a subject and the objects it is aware of. The proper orientation of this relationship, which is perceptually self evident, is known as the primacy of existence. In essence, "wishing does not make it so". This orientation is evident in every single act of consciousness we have. Every single one. Nowhere do we observe the opposite orientation.

Theism affirms the opposite view of this relationship, the primacy of consciousness. It holds that all of the objects of awareness are created by a knowing subject. In essence, "whishing makes it so". You don't need to be uncertain whether the claims of theism are untrue, because truth rests exclusively on the primacy of existence. Here's the proof of that.

1. If truth is the identification of reality based on facts that obtain independent of anyone's conscious activity such as wishing, wanting, praying, faith, liking, fearing, speaking, dreaming, etc., then truth rests exclusively on the primacy of existence metaphysics.

2. truth is the identification of reality based on facts that obtain independent of anyone's conscious activity such as wishing, wanting, praying, faith, liking, fearing, speaking, dreaming, etc.

Therefore, truth rests exclusively on the primacy of existence metaphysics.

So you see, you can say with certainty, if you accept reason, that theism can not be true, since it affirms the primacy of consciousness. If you continue to hold that such an entity as a god who created everything in existence by an act of conscious will is possible, you have abandoned reason, which recognizes implicitly that "wishing doesn't make it so".

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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18-01-2016, 10:19 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:13 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 10:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  The rest is a confusion of 'qualia', itself an incoherent concept.

My motorcycle begs to differ. Tongue

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I've read that at least seven times and Pirsig is talking about quality, not qualia.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-01-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:17 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  There is no such thing as my reality or your reality, there is only reality, the realm of things that are real. No, the realm of things that are real is not dependent on our awareness of it. Our awareness of it depends on it. We know this by direct perception.

Descartes' malicious genius.

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18-01-2016, 10:22 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 10:13 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  My motorcycle begs to differ. Tongue

[Image: zen.jpg]

I've read that at least seven times and Pirsig is talking about quality, not qualia.

You're a nasty old nitpicker ain'tcha. Big Grin

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18-01-2016, 10:23 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(17-01-2016 10:05 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(17-01-2016 09:53 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Any objective reality would mean that either gods do exist or gods don't exist. Unless of course you subscribe to this sort of stuff...

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So one of your statements must be an honest one.
The subject isn't God's existence, it's about my certainty.
I am not certain so for me to claim otherwise is being dishonest.

Hey Agnostic Shame, It can be deduced that history has happened. You sound like you are winding up to be a holocaust denier or something specific. There is no way to know if that happened unless you saw it yourself, right? The same with the voyages of Christopher Columbus. If you are ready to deny anything that you have not experienced I deny that you exist! Not only did NASA not get to the moon there is no such thing as NASA! probably not even a moon. I have never been there!
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18-01-2016, 10:25 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 10:13 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  My motorcycle begs to differ. Tongue

[Image: zen.jpg]

I've read that at least seven times and Pirsig is talking about quality, not qualia.

Isn't that the plural if quality?
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18-01-2016, 10:32 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:20 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 10:17 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  There is no such thing as my reality or your reality, there is only reality, the realm of things that are real. No, the realm of things that are real is not dependent on our awareness of it. Our awareness of it depends on it. We know this by direct perception.

Descartes' malicious genius.

French-fried solipsism. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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