Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
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18-01-2016, 10:46 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 07:01 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 02:47 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I know you didn't.

It's just that you are obviously well read and articulate so I was asking for your thoughts on the thinking of thoughts.


Indeed not but it's the kinda thing that interests me.

A 'thought' is an output of a process.

Understanding that process (how it works) i.e. activities triggered by some stimuli (inputs) would tell us something about the properties of those inputs (real or virtual).

To me, that's a worthwhile use of my time (assuming time is real). Big Grin


OK. Thanks.

'Real' in the sense that consciousness is real?

Like numbers are real?

Real or imaginary ... there's the rub.

Consider
Numbers are more like adjectives.
They help describe what reality is but do not in any way physically interact with it. Interaction with reality is one of the requirements for determining if something exists.
It is considered an abstract concept. A man made construct for the purpose of understanding.

Well, that was interesting.

You seemed to have picked on the most throw-away part of my post (the bit that was just a play on 'imaginary') and avoided answering my question.

Kinda strange.

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18-01-2016, 10:49 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2016 11:01 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:07 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 09:58 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I can dispute your perception of what the dog sees and you would not be able to defend it without actually being the dog.
How do you know that what you see as Blue & Red is not what the dog sees as Green & Orange?

Consider this:
There are people in this world that see a different shade of red than you do when looking at the same object.
Suppose they make up the majority of people.
Which shade of red is the true shade of red?
What if the Majority of people don't even see red?
What if no one ever saw Red ever in the history of the universe?
Does that mean that Red does not exist?

Your reality is highly dependent on perspective because perspective is the base of all self awareness.
If you cannot become the dog then you cannot make a claim of absolute certainty within your reality.
No one is asking you to make a claim of absolute certainty from another's perspective. Any such claim would be dishonest unless you can take agency of their perspective.

You keep arguing the dog bit, which you have little to no knowledge of it seems. http://dog-vision.com/ It is totally irrelevant.

I said: We are assuming my vision is good enough to be the basis of my perception, and his sense of smell is acute enough to render his perception.

You are not answering my question.

Are you saying that only what I perceive is fact, that both perceive facts, or that none of it is factual?
How can you claim absolute certainty if you admit your statement is based on an assumption?
Facts are indisputable pieces of information.
Assumptions are not facts.

I am not saying only what you perceive can be fact.
I am stating the statements you made about what you think your dog is seeing is not a proven fact because I have a dispute with it.
If it can be disputed it cannot be a fact.
A fact is simply undisputed information.
If you are making the claim that you are absolutely certain of what the dog perceives, then I will dispute this.
I am disputing the legitimacy of your claim on the grounds that you dot no posses agency of the dog's perception therefore you cannot be absolutely certain of what the dog perceives.
If my dispute is found to be illogical to you and no one else can dispute your claims then you can consider your claim to be a fact (only within the framework of your awareness).
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18-01-2016, 11:01 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 10:07 AM)Dom Wrote:  You keep arguing the dog bit, which you have little to no knowledge of it seems. http://dog-vision.com/ It is totally irrelevant.

I said: We are assuming my vision is good enough to be the basis of my perception, and his sense of smell is acute enough to render his perception.

You are not answering my question.

Are you saying that only what I perceive is fact, that both perceive facts, or that none of it is factual?
How can you claim absolute certainty if you admit your statement is based on an assumption?
Facts are indisputable pieces of information.
Assumptions are not facts.

I am not saying only what you perceive can be fact.
I am stating the statements you made about what you think your dog is seeing is not a fact.
If it can be disputed it cannot be a fact.
A fact is simply undisputed information.
If you are making the claim that you are absolutely certain of what the dog perceives, then I will dispute this.
I am disputing the legitimacy of your claim on the grounds that you dot no posses agency of the dog's perception therefore you cannot be absolutely certain of what the dog perceives.
If my dispute is found to be illogical to you and no one else can dispute your claims then you can consider your claim to be a fact (only within the framework of your awareness).

I never claimed absolute certainty. You are just avoiding answering my question.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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18-01-2016, 11:01 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
At work.

But... did your 'fact' originate within the subset of your thoughts or outside it?

Have you thought of how you might tell the difference yet in your thought experiment?
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18-01-2016, 11:03 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 11:01 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 10:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How can you claim absolute certainty if you admit your statement is based on an assumption?
Facts are indisputable pieces of information.
Assumptions are not facts.

I am not saying only what you perceive can be fact.
I am stating the statements you made about what you think your dog is seeing is not a fact.
If it can be disputed it cannot be a fact.
A fact is simply undisputed information.
If you are making the claim that you are absolutely certain of what the dog perceives, then I will dispute this.
I am disputing the legitimacy of your claim on the grounds that you dot no posses agency of the dog's perception therefore you cannot be absolutely certain of what the dog perceives.
If my dispute is found to be illogical to you and no one else can dispute your claims then you can consider your claim to be a fact (only within the framework of your awareness).

I never claimed absolute certainty. You are just avoiding answering my question.
The only question you asked was if I think your perception is not a fact.
I already answered that.
No it's not a fact.
Why?
Because it is logically disputable.
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18-01-2016, 11:07 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:20 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 10:17 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  There is no such thing as my reality or your reality, there is only reality, the realm of things that are real. No, the realm of things that are real is not dependent on our awareness of it. Our awareness of it depends on it. We know this by direct perception.

Descartes' malicious genius.

Descartes was a rationalist. He accepted the arbitrary as possible. I don't. He began by doubting, a conscious activity. He began with a subjective starting point. His idea of a malicious genius who created a false reality violates the primacy of existence so it should be dismissed.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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18-01-2016, 11:11 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 11:07 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 10:20 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Descartes' malicious genius.

Descartes was a rationalist. He accepted the arbitrary as possible. I don't. He began by doubting, a conscious activity. He began with a subjective starting point. His idea of a malicious genius who created a false reality violates the primacy of existence so it should be dismissed.

You're Laplacian then? Not that there's anything wrong with that.

#sigh
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18-01-2016, 11:13 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 11:01 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

But... did your 'fact' originate within the subset of your thoughts or outside it?

Have you thought of how you might tell the difference yet in your thought experiment?
You are asking me if my indisputable information exists within the framework of my self awareness?
Firstly,
If it is disputable then then it isn't a fact. Facts are dependent on the point in time.
If it wasn't disputed yesterday then it was a fact yesterday (within the framework of my self awareness)
If it wasn't disputed up until this present time then it remains a fact today (only within the framework of my self awareness)
If tomorrow it is logically disputed then it is no longer a fact (only within the framework of my self awareness)

As for your question:
Assuming that it was a fact.
I do not know if the fact originated outside of my self awareness or not. It is just as likely to have originated inside my self awareness as it is likely to have existed outside my self awareness.
I do know however, that the claim absolutely exists within my self awareness regardless of whether or not it orginated externally.
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18-01-2016, 11:26 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2016 11:30 AM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
At work.

No, I don't think I am asking you if indisputable information exists within the frame work of your self awareness.

Previously you've admitted you can not tell the differance between a thought that is 'within the subset' of you thoughts and one that came from 'outside'.

So.... is this not a sticking point for your way of thinking/thought?
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18-01-2016, 11:40 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2016 11:43 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 11:26 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

No, I don't think I am asking you if indisputable information exists within the frame work of your self awareness.

Previously you've admitted you can not tell the differance between a thought that is 'within the subset' of you thoughts and one that came from 'outside'.

So.... is this not a sticking point for your way of thinking/thought?
But there is a difference. One I know absolutely exists & the other I do not know.
How exactly does one go about telling the difference between something they know exists and something they are not sure exists. Where do you even begin to make the differentiation? Is that even logical?
How is this a sticking point?
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