Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
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18-01-2016, 09:29 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I was using the word thoughts in reference to "self awareness" which involves the 5 senses.

That's great... but you're again making stuff up and hence, with out even more detailed explanations, it makes no sense.

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Maybe the word "thought awareness" isn't the right word & I should have been using "self awareness" all along to avoid any misconceptions.

And that's not going to help because people still don't know what you mean....Because you put different meanings onto words/into concepts, that people don't generally do.

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It's my fault because the term is so close to Solipsism & I try hard to avoid using terms that relate to it. It's such an illogical world view.
My apologies. I will try not to do that again.

I don't really care how you define yourself. ♫ ♪ You can be what you want to be, do what you want to do... baby..... ♪ ♫

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  When I make the statement I am 100% certain thoughts exist, it is in reference to anything that exists within "self awareness".

This sentence makes no sense. There's no context between the concept... Nor any good context any more, since you've posted that you use words how ever you want to with no seeming care or regard as to how the population in general correctly and technically uses them.

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  The only disagreements I have had thus far with other posters is this:
Some of them are 100% certain that things exist outside of their senses even if they have no physical interaction with it. ie. Sight, Touch, Smell, Hear, Taste.
I am uncertain if anything outside of my senses exist until I have physical interaction with it.

A physical interaction is way more and beyond your statement of;

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I already stated the only thing I am absolutely certain exists are thoughts.

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It would be dishonest for me to say something like I am 100% certain Niagara Falls exists. I rather think that it's possible.

Which is completely removed from the embolden quote above, you know?

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I am probably in the minority due to my total honesty approach to life, but I cannot be dishonest with myself nor do I wish to be dishonest with others as to my world view.
Others may ridicule me if I make the honest claim that I am uncertain if Niagara Falls exists because even though I am being honest I am also in the minority.

I plead the Fifth on making a statement about what I may think about your posting. Angel

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Theists ridicule Atheists when they make the honest claim that they are uncertain if God exists, because even though they are being honest, they are also in the minority

I thought coming here to join a forum of persons in a minority with a similar view to honesty would be a little more open to another honest person in a minority group. It's not what I expected but I am appreciating it all the same.

Congrats on joining the forum and it's been fun posting with you.
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18-01-2016, 09:33 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 08:59 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 08:41 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I have no way of testing it.

Which makes it unfalseafiable and thus entirely worthless and worth no ones time. Unfalsifiable hypotheses are hypotheses that can be discarded out of hand, the fact you have defined something as untestable doesn't make it unassailable it makes it useless.
You are further emphasizing my point Whiskey.
I wanted to show the utter uselessness of believing in something that cannot be tested.
The whole brain in a vat theory is no different than believing in reality before self awareness.
If we cannot prove that something exists & we have no way of testing it then why believe in it.
Eg. God
Eg. Reality outside or before self awareness
See topic title
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18-01-2016, 09:37 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 09:29 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I was using the word thoughts in reference to "self awareness" which involves the 5 senses.

That's great... but you're again making stuff up and hence, with out even more detailed explanations, it makes no sense.

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Maybe the word "thought awareness" isn't the right word & I should have been using "self awareness" all along to avoid any misconceptions.

And that's not going to help because people still don't know what you mean....Because you put different meanings onto words/into concepts, that people don't generally do.

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It's my fault because the term is so close to Solipsism & I try hard to avoid using terms that relate to it. It's such an illogical world view.
My apologies. I will try not to do that again.

I don't really care how you define yourself. ♫ ♪ You can be what you want to be, do what you want to do... baby..... ♪ ♫

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  When I make the statement I am 100% certain thoughts exist, it is in reference to anything that exists within "self awareness".

This sentence makes no sense. There's no context between the concept... Nor any good context any more, since you've posted that you use words how ever you want to with no seeming care or regard as to how the population in general correctly and technically uses them.

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  The only disagreements I have had thus far with other posters is this:
Some of them are 100% certain that things exist outside of their senses even if they have no physical interaction with it. ie. Sight, Touch, Smell, Hear, Taste.
I am uncertain if anything outside of my senses exist until I have physical interaction with it.

A physical interaction is way more and beyond your statement of;

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I already stated the only thing I am absolutely certain exists are thoughts.

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It would be dishonest for me to say something like I am 100% certain Niagara Falls exists. I rather think that it's possible.

Which is completely removed from the embolden quote above, you know?

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I am probably in the minority due to my total honesty approach to life, but I cannot be dishonest with myself nor do I wish to be dishonest with others as to my world view.
Others may ridicule me if I make the honest claim that I am uncertain if Niagara Falls exists because even though I am being honest I am also in the minority.

I plead the Fifth on making a statement about what I may think about your posting. Angel

(18-01-2016 09:19 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Theists ridicule Atheists when they make the honest claim that they are uncertain if God exists, because even though they are being honest, they are also in the minority

I thought coming here to join a forum of persons in a minority with a similar view to honesty would be a little more open to another honest person in a minority group. It's not what I expected but I am appreciating it all the same.

Congrats on joining the forum and it's been fun posting with you.
Can you show me how else other than though our 5 senses we can interact with reality?
Interact as in change or observe.
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18-01-2016, 09:38 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 09:00 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  The only disagreements I have had thus far with other posters is this:
Some of them are 100% certain that things exist outside of their senses even if they have no physical interaction with it. ie. Sight, Touch, Smell, Hear, Taste.
I am uncertain if anything outside of my senses exist until I have physical interaction with it.

Thanks for demonstrating even further that you were dishonest in your OP.
So now "thoughts" have magically turned into "senses".
Consider

Lesson #1 for Philosobabbling;
The verb "exists" goes with SINGULAR subjects.
The verb "exist" goes with PLURAL subjects.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-01-2016, 09:41 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 09:00 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  When have I ever denied the possibility that the arm could be broken?
Didn't say that you did. You like to pretend people are saying things they are not. It's kinda irritating.

(18-01-2016 09:00 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I am speaking about things that we are not self aware of. The broken arm is something that we can be self aware of so I can exercise 100% certainty.Maybe the word "thought awareness" isn't the right word & I should have been using "self awareness" all along to avoid any misconceptions.
See and now you are just equivocating and trying to change your definitions, which you repeatedly gave us, once they stop being as bullet proof as you think they are.
  • Banjo said hit your self that proves things outside your thoughts are Knowable reality.
  • You said "pain is just a thought process" so hitting myself wouldn't prove the existence of anything outside the mind as knowable thus it's a pointless experiment.
  • I said that pain is not the only outcome, you also lose functionality which is independent of "thought processes".
  • You are not trying to change your own definition of what you believe to something even MORE vague and harder to falsify, which is the mark of a charlatan.
  • Not that "self awareness" works any better as you can be dealt sever brain trauma lose all self awareness and even with that lack of awareness be damaged and lose functionality from subsequent injuries.
The mind is an emergent property of a sufficiently evolved brain.

(18-01-2016 09:00 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It's my fault because the term is so close to Solipsism & I try hard to avoid using terms that relate to it. It's such an illogical world view.
A world view like yours that you have to abandon just to function in reality is not just a illogical it's stupid counter-productive pseudo-philosophical wankery.

(18-01-2016 09:00 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Some of them are 100% certain that things exist outside of their senses even if they have no physical interaction with it. ie. Sight, Touch, Smell, Hear, Taste.
I am uncertain if anything outside of my senses exist until I have physical interaction with it.
And as has been pointed out to you a dozen times over there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence to support the hypothesis that reality outside of the individual exists and exactly ZERO evidence that reality is limited to what you are describing. The notion we can't know with "absolute certainty" is entirely irreverent because a logically sound and justified belief does not REQUIRE "absolute certainty". Believing something that goes against, as you do, the absolute preponderance of the evidence is in fact irrational not matter how you want to dress it up.

You can't KNOW with absolute certainty that exiting the 33 floor of a building from the window instead of the elevator is not just as safe but you still exit through the elevator because even if you don't have absolute certainty about the existence of reality you still have to act as though it is because you have no other choice. Which is why this topic is just pseudo-intellectual jerking off.

The lack of absolute certainty doesn't make the view with 100% of the evidence in support of it illogical. your view of logic and rationality is narrow and unrefined. Black and white nonsense.

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18-01-2016, 09:43 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 09:38 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 09:00 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  The only disagreements I have had thus far with other posters is this:
Some of them are 100% certain that things exist outside of their senses even if they have no physical interaction with it. ie. Sight, Touch, Smell, Hear, Taste.
I am uncertain if anything outside of my senses exist until I have physical interaction with it.

Thanks for demonstrating even further that you were dishonest in your OP.
So now "thoughts" have magically turned into "senses".
Consider
Not dishonest just overly cautious. Thoughts and self awareness go hand in hand.
It's quite probable I would have been called a Solipsist way may if had put self awareness in my op.
Still I take full responsibility for confusing many of you as a result of my own insecurities.
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18-01-2016, 09:49 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 09:43 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 09:38 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Thanks for demonstrating even further that you were dishonest in your OP.
So now "thoughts" have magically turned into "senses".
Consider

Not dishonest just overly cautious. Thoughts and self awareness go hand in hand.
It's quite probable I would have been called a Solipsist way may if had put self awareness in my op.
Still I take full responsibility for confusing many of you as a result of my own insecurities.

Dishonest rationalization. It DIRECTLY contradicts what you claimed in the OP. You are shown to be self-contradictory, and you try to obfuscate. "Thoughts and self awareness go hand in hand" has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with the point you made it look like your were addressing. You are a solipsist. You are too dishonest to admit it.

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18-01-2016, 09:50 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 09:23 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  In this scenario I believed my arm to be broken 100% before I woke up in a hospital bed due to how real the pain felt and me not being able to use my arm.
I woke up and everything was fine. The arm not broken or scarred and fully functional.
Their story seems more likely to be true.
Then you are just plain gullible. That explanation violates Occam's Razor a billion different ways from Sunday. It's far more likely you are hallucinating now or when you broke your arm, that they are lying, or that you have brain damage just to name a few.

You are still avoiding the ENTIRE point of what I'm saying and instead creating from thin air imaginary made up solutions to the criticism. If I could respond to all my detractors with " well maybe it was dragons that dun it me thinks" I'd be able to hand wave a lot more stuff away as well. But I wouldn't be rational.

(18-01-2016 09:23 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  All this proves is that i can never know for certain & my best bet is to trust my senses in any given situation
Your senses REQUIRE an outside reality to function, otherwise it's just your "thought processes" making up shit. Your position has no internal consistency.

Slightly off topic but I never got an answer earlier: do you personally believe a god exists? Not do you know, do you BELIEVE it exists? Yes or no please, not interested in being asked a question as an answer to my question.

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18-01-2016, 09:52 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 09:41 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 09:00 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  When have I ever denied the possibility that the arm could be broken?
Didn't say that you did. You like to pretend people are saying things they are not. It's kinda irritating.

(18-01-2016 09:00 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I am speaking about things that we are not self aware of. The broken arm is something that we can be self aware of so I can exercise 100% certainty.Maybe the word "thought awareness" isn't the right word & I should have been using "self awareness" all along to avoid any misconceptions.
See and now you are just equivocating and trying to change your definitions, which you repeatedly gave us, once they stop being as bullet proof as you think they are.
  • Banjo said hit your self that proves things outside your thoughts are Knowable reality.
  • You said "pain is just a thought process" so hitting myself wouldn't prove the existence of anything outside the mind as knowable thus it's a pointless experiment.
  • I said that pain is not the only outcome, you also lose functionality which is independent of "thought processes".
  • You are not trying to change your own definition of what you believe to something even MORE vague and harder to falsify, which is the mark of a charlatan.
  • Not that "self awareness" works any better as you can be dealt sever brain trauma lose all self awareness and even with that lack of awareness be damaged and lose functionality from subsequent injuries.
The mind is an emergent property of a sufficiently evolved brain.

(18-01-2016 09:00 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It's my fault because the term is so close to Solipsism & I try hard to avoid using terms that relate to it. It's such an illogical world view.
A world view like yours that you have to abandon just to function in reality is not just a illogical it's stupid counter-productive pseudo-philosophical wankery.

(18-01-2016 09:00 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Some of them are 100% certain that things exist outside of their senses even if they have no physical interaction with it. ie. Sight, Touch, Smell, Hear, Taste.
I am uncertain if anything outside of my senses exist until I have physical interaction with it.
And as has been pointed out to you a dozen times over there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence to support the hypothesis that reality outside of the individual exists and exactly ZERO evidence that reality is limited to what you are describing. The notion we can't know with "absolute certainty" is entirely irreverent because a logically sound and justified belief does not REQUIRE "absolute certainty". Believing something that goes against, as you do, the absolute preponderance of the evidence is in fact irrational not matter how you want to dress it up.

You can't KNOW with absolute certainty that exiting the 33 floor of a building from the window instead of the elevator is not just as safe but you still exit through the elevator because even if you don't have absolute certainty about the existence of reality you still have to act as though it is because you have no other choice. Which is why this topic is just pseudo-intellectual jerking off.

The lack of absolute certainty doesn't make the view with 100% of the evidence in support of it illogical. your view of logic and rationality is narrow and unrefined. Black and white nonsense.
By your logic if I had a mountain of evidence based on personal experience that my life is being guided by some divine force each time I asked for help, I would be stupid not to continue asking this divine force for help.
Please tell me this is not what you are saying. I gave up on God ages ago even when I had good reason to still believe.
Sorry for the personal commentary.
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18-01-2016, 09:56 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 09:41 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  See and now you are just equivocating and trying to change your definitions, which you repeatedly gave us, once they stop being as bullet proof as you think they are.
  • Banjo said hit your self that proves things outside your thoughts are Knowable reality.
  • You said "pain is just a thought process" so hitting myself wouldn't prove the existence of anything outside the mind as knowable thus it's a pointless experiment.
  • I said that pain is not the only outcome, you also lose functionality which is independent of "thought processes".
  • You are not trying to change your own definition of what you believe to something even MORE vague and harder to falsify, which is the mark of a charlatan.
  • Not that "self awareness" works any better as you can be dealt sever brain trauma lose all self awareness and even with that lack of awareness be damaged and lose functionality from subsequent injuries.
The mind is an emergent property of a sufficiently evolved brain.

(18-01-2016 09:00 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It's my fault because the term is so close to Solipsism & I try hard to avoid using terms that relate to it. It's such an illogical world view.
A world view like yours that you have to abandon just to function in reality is not just a illogical it's stupid counter-productive pseudo-philosophical wankery.

(18-01-2016 09:00 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Some of them are 100% certain that things exist outside of their senses even if they have no physical interaction with it. ie. Sight, Touch, Smell, Hear, Taste.
I am uncertain if anything outside of my senses exist until I have physical interaction with it.
And as has been pointed out to you a dozen times over there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence to support the hypothesis that reality outside of the individual exists and exactly ZERO evidence that reality is limited to what you are describing. The notion we can't know with "absolute certainty" is entirely irreverent because a logically sound and justified belief does not REQUIRE "absolute certainty". Believing something that goes against, as you do, the absolute preponderance of the evidence is in fact irrational not matter how you want to dress it up.

You can't KNOW with absolute certainty that exiting the 33 floor of a building from the window instead of the elevator is not just as safe but you still exit through the elevator because even if you don't have absolute certainty about the existence of reality you still have to act as though it is because you have no other choice. Which is why this topic is just pseudo-intellectual jerking off.

The lack of absolute certainty doesn't make the view with 100% of the evidence in support of it illogical. your view of logic and rationality is narrow and unrefined. Black and white nonsense.

I told him back on page one to bang his head on a rock, and see if he thought it didn't exist. Infants go through the stage where they get over thinking the universe is all about them. He is the very definition of a pseudo-intellectual. Life is not black and white. He seems to think it is. (I actually contend there is something neurotic about his posts ... demanding certainty). Pain is not a thought process. It's a reflex. No matter how much he tries to say it's something else, he would react (as a reflex ... which is NOT a thought process ... it's an instinctive reflex), to pain, and if he didn't he has a neurological disorder.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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