Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
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18-01-2016, 10:22 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:11 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 09:33 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  You are further emphasizing my point Whiskey.
Actually I'm not and the fact you think I am is a fairly good example of how unqualified you are to be even having this conversation.

(18-01-2016 09:33 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I wanted to show the utter uselessness of believing in something that cannot be tested.
Except an independent reality or a reality that operates independent of the "thought processes" of those that inhabit it CAN be tested so you haven't shown anything.

(18-01-2016 09:33 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  The whole brain in a vat theory is no different than believing in reality before self awareness.

Firstly now you are equivocating back to solipsism and it's starting to get annoying. Secondly it's not a theory it's a hypothesis at best (it's actually not even that but I digress) and it's largely unfalsifiable at that.
Thirdly it is actually different as we can make predictions based on the hypotheses and EVERY SINGLE prediction we make around the hypothesis that reality exists before a mind can become self aware has been correct. NO predictions for the hypothesis of BiaV have been shown to be accurate.


Do you have a SINGLE example of a self aware mind existing outsides of a physical brain?
How can "you" test for a reality that exists before you became self aware without the presupposition that reality existed before you became self aware as part of the test?
Just give me one example is all I need.
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18-01-2016, 10:24 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:06 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 10:01 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Okay.. lets examine this post.


Actually... (Assuming you are meaning the same things by "A mountain of evidence" that the original poster of said statement and that I am sure I understand their allusion of) then YES, yes you would be stupid to ignore said guiding information from said divine force for which there is a mountain of evidence FOR.

Notice the caveat in the above? "Mountain of evidence for."

I have no idea what WhiskeyDebates is saying though I can read his posts very clearly and understand the meaning therein.

Hug No worries about the personal commentary stuff. Smile
Would a mountain of evidence include the teachings of my Geography teacher & also countless individuals telling me Niagara falls exists?

Huh
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18-01-2016, 10:24 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:06 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Would a mountain of evidence include the teachings of my Geography teacher & also countless individuals telling me Niagara falls exists?
Only if those teachings could be corroborated. If the existence of Niagara Falls can't be demonstrated, tested, or falsified then the teaching are irrelevant. EVIDENCE is what engenders rational belief.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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18-01-2016, 10:30 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
As an intermission to this thread, I offer this poem:

solipsist

Oh I wish I was a brain in a jar.
Yes, I wish I was a brain in a jar.
‘Cause if I was a brain in a jar
I wouldn’t have to fix my car.
or travel far to find a bar,
or analyze a ricercar.
All that is, near or far,
would be
my jar.


I'd float in goo and contemplate
Reality, 'til rather late.
Have my creations wash the plate
and let
my
ego
E - le - vate
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18-01-2016, 10:31 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:21 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 09:52 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  By your logic if I had a mountain of evidence based on personal experience that my life is being guided by some divine force each time I asked for help, I would be stupid not to continue asking this divine force for help.
Personal anecdotes aren't even the equivalent of a flat field of evidence. Evidence is demonstrable, testable, falsifiable, and repeatable. Confusing correlation with causation is not evidence.
Your making a false comparison between the mountains of objective, demonstrable, testable, falsifiable, and repeatable evidence we have for the existence of reality before self awareness with personal anecdotes about a supernatural being.

(18-01-2016 09:52 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I gave up on God ages ago even when I had good reason to still believe.
Were those reasons better than personal anecdotes and a inability to separate correlation from causation?
This would require me not believing in the existence of anything until I have personally went through the mountain of evidence?
Or do I just take it on blind faith the instant the evidence is claimed to have been placed before me?
At which point do I accept the claim something exists?
Evidence 1, or 2 or all that was placed before me?
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18-01-2016, 10:36 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:24 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 10:06 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Would a mountain of evidence include the teachings of my Geography teacher & also countless individuals telling me Niagara falls exists?
Only if those teachings could be corroborated. If the existence of Niagara Falls can't be demonstrated, tested, or falsified then the teaching are irrelevant. EVIDENCE is what engenders rational belief.
At which point do I accept the claim that Niagara exists?
1. When you said it exists?
2. When you presented the evidence for me to review?
3. After I reviewed all the evidence?
4. After I experienced Niagara with my 5 senses?
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18-01-2016, 10:48 PM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2016 10:52 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
Repost
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18-01-2016, 10:50 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:22 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How can "you" test for a reality that exists before you became self aware without the presupposition that reality existed before you became self aware as part of the test?
Just give me one example is all I need.

Simple we make predictions about what we would expect to see if reality existed before self awareness (could you please find a less vague to the point of useless term) and we then make predictions about what we would expect to see if reality arose after/because of self awareness.

For example if reality arises before a self aware mind we would expect a reality that was ordered in such away as for reality to exist. If existence has primacy over consciousness we would expect our thoughts to be wrong about reality on a regular basis. We would expect consciousness and the available actions of self aware beings to to conform to and be limited by the laws of reality.

This is exactly what we see. Reality when measured and tested objectively by self aware entities (humans) gets the same result every time. Our senses are frequently wrong, which is why we have the Scientific Method and why we get objectively verifiable results.

Here is the real strength of the idea that reality existed before self awareness: it has the power to explain things. The brain in a vat nonsense as a hypothesis has exactly ZERO explanatory power, as it creates more questions then it answers (which would be zero answers).

Where does a self aware mind come from if not from a physical brain?
Can it function removed from a physical processing center? How? Do we have any examples?
Why would self awareness create a reality anyway? What's the mechanic for that? What's it's motive?
Why would self awareness arise before it has anything to be aware of? What's the catalyst for self awareness' existence?
Given that we know self awareness relies on sense processing how can something be aware of anything before the senses exist or the thing they would sense?

I could go on and on but the point is your position is unfalsifibale and has NO explanatory power and NO evidence. Our position is entirely falsifiable, makes verifiable predictions, can explain ALL of those questions and more, has ALL the explanatory power, and ALL the corroborating and supporting evidence.

Our position is the logical position and yours is entirely illogical. That we don't have "absolute certainty" doesn't effect the strength of our position in the slightest. Despite what you like to tell yourself and us a position is not rendered illogical just because it does not have 100% certainty. That's not how rationalism or logic work.

Your position is just pseudo-philosophical wankery.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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18-01-2016, 11:00 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:31 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  This would require me not believing in the existence of anything until I have personally went through the mountain of evidence?
Depends on the claim. Mundane claims don't require first hand investigation to warrant a justified and reasonable belief. Once claims start to get into the realm of extraordinary then your require extra ordinary evidence to justify a belief as rational.

Claims like "the only known system for producing consciousness didn't exist until AFTER consciousness did" for example is a extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence and is irrational because not only does it have no evidence it doesn't even make sense.

(18-01-2016 10:31 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  At which point do I accept the claim something exists?
I literally just gave you the criteria to justify belief in something. Like..literally just did on the very post you are quoting.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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18-01-2016, 11:00 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:31 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 10:21 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Personal anecdotes aren't even the equivalent of a flat field of evidence. Evidence is demonstrable, testable, falsifiable, and repeatable. Confusing correlation with causation is not evidence.
Your making a false comparison between the mountains of objective, demonstrable, testable, falsifiable, and repeatable evidence we have for the existence of reality before self awareness with personal anecdotes about a supernatural being.

Were those reasons better than personal anecdotes and a inability to separate correlation from causation?
This would require me not believing in the existence of anything until I have personally went through the mountain of evidence?
Or do I just take it on blind faith the instant the evidence is claimed to have been placed before me?
At which point do I accept the claim something exists?
Evidence 1, or 2 or all that was placed before me?

If you were an "academic" skeptic... or just a strong evidentialism focused one... like you said you felt that label applied to you, you would require yourself to not believe anything until you went through though the mountain of evidence.

Again though, you can accept and believe things on tentative levels. You can accept it exists to a degree, a level of practicality on base 2 but not to anything of a strong acceptance until you have 1.

Your way of thinking and talking in these thread at least, is reverting constantly to an all or nothing black/white type of scenario. Mental states, thoughts, labels, ideas, words, and so many other concepts like this don't need to function that way.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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