Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
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18-01-2016, 11:03 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 11:00 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 10:31 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  This would require me not believing in the existence of anything until I have personally went through the mountain of evidence?
Depends on the claim. Mundane claims don't require first hand investigation to warrant a justified and reasonable belief. Once claims start to get into the realm of extraordinary then your require extra ordinary evidence to justify a belief as rational.

Claims like "the only known system for producing consciousness didn't exist until AFTER consciousness did" for example is a extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence and is irrational because not only does it have no evidence it doesn't even make sense.

(18-01-2016 10:31 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  At which point do I accept the claim something exists?
I literally just gave you the criteria to justify belief in something. Like..literally just did on the very post you are quoting.
I am unsure when to apply the criteria. Please help.
At which point do I accept the claim that Niagara exists?
1. When you said it exists?
2. When you presented the evidence for me to review?
3. After I reviewed all the evidence?
4. After I experienced Niagara with my 5 senses?
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18-01-2016, 11:04 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 10:36 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 10:24 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Only if those teachings could be corroborated. If the existence of Niagara Falls can't be demonstrated, tested, or falsified then the teaching are irrelevant. EVIDENCE is what engenders rational belief.
At which point do I accept the claim that Niagara exists?
1. When you said it exists?
2. When you presented the evidence for me to review?
3. After I reviewed all the evidence?
4. After I experienced Niagara with my 5 senses?
You don't need to review ALL the evidence just enough evidence as to make the belief rational. You can still be wrong, but being wrong about something doesn't make you irrational. Holding views and opinions not supported by ANY evidence, or even worse AGAINST the evidence is what makes a belief irrational.

Also if the claim is demonstrably true your acceptance of it is not really relevant to the claim being actually true. People willingly believe things that aren't factually accurate all the time. Reality always wins though.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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18-01-2016, 11:09 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 11:03 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 11:00 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Depends on the claim. Mundane claims don't require first hand investigation to warrant a justified and reasonable belief. Once claims start to get into the realm of extraordinary then your require extra ordinary evidence to justify a belief as rational.

Claims like "the only known system for producing consciousness didn't exist until AFTER consciousness did" for example is a extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence and is irrational because not only does it have no evidence it doesn't even make sense.

I literally just gave you the criteria to justify belief in something. Like..literally just did on the very post you are quoting.
I am unsure when to apply the criteria. Please help.
At which point do I accept the claim that Niagara exists?
1. When you said it exists?
2. When you presented the evidence for me to review?
3. After I reviewed all the evidence?
4. After I experienced Niagara with my 5 senses?

It's up to you to decide at what point you find the criteria "justified" enough to accept it.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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18-01-2016, 11:16 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 11:03 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 11:00 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Depends on the claim. Mundane claims don't require first hand investigation to warrant a justified and reasonable belief. Once claims start to get into the realm of extraordinary then your require extra ordinary evidence to justify a belief as rational.

Claims like "the only known system for producing consciousness didn't exist until AFTER consciousness did" for example is a extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence and is irrational because not only does it have no evidence it doesn't even make sense.

I literally just gave you the criteria to justify belief in something. Like..literally just did on the very post you are quoting.
I am unsure when to apply the criteria. Please help.
At which point do I accept the claim that Niagara exists?
1. When you said it exists?
2. When you presented the evidence for me to review?
3. After I reviewed all the evidence?
4. After I experienced Niagara with my 5 senses?
That depends on the level of belief you are trying to engender and what you consider a rational justification for belief. Also depends on the nature of the claim.
For example in this particular one the claim is that a waterfall exists which is a very basic claim that doesn't require much in the way of evidence to justify a rational belief in it's existence.
Now if I said that Niagara exists.....and a dragon lives in it's waters..well that's an extraordinary claim that that requires a much greater amount of evidence.


I personally don't believe anything lacking in evidence, though that does not mean I require evidence for every single claim just those that would undermine those things for which I already have evidence. I don't require evidence you own a spoon because I know most people in North America own spoons, this fits in with knowledge I already have. If you told me it was made out of dragon bones.....well then I WOULD require evidence.

Trying to boil it down into a 4 step process is ...well to be honest it's juvenile black and white thinking no offense.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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18-01-2016, 11:45 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 09:37 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
Can you show me how else other than though our 5 senses we can interact with reality?
...

(18-01-2016 11:03 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  ...
4. After I experienced Niagara with my 5 senses?

FYI, you need to update that Aristotelian catalogue...

5 is so passé.

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19-01-2016, 12:00 AM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2016 01:06 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(18-01-2016 11:04 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 10:36 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  At which point do I accept the claim that Niagara exists?
1. When you said it exists?
2. When you presented the evidence for me to review?
3. After I reviewed all the evidence?
4. After I experienced Niagara with my 5 senses?
You don't need to review ALL the evidence just enough evidence as to make the belief rational. You can still be wrong, but being wrong about something doesn't make you irrational. Holding views and opinions not supported by ANY evidence, or even worse AGAINST the evidence is what makes a belief irrational.

Also if the claim is demonstrably true your acceptance of it is not really relevant to the claim being actually true. People willingly believe things that aren't factually accurate all the time. Reality always wins though.
That rules out 1 & 2 then.
So I am supposed to believe your claim that Niagara exists once I feel comfortable with the amount of evidence I find?
I could claim it exists after just 1 try if I felt comfortable with that then?
It's up to me to decide if it exists or not then.
I thought you once said reality exists regardless of perception.
Niagara is supposed to exist regardless of my perception.
So which is it?
1. Niagara exists regardless of my perception?
2. Niagara exists based on my perception?

If 1. Why should I believe that? How can I prove that? Oh right I'm supposed to use the scientific method of proving something exists.
But
I'm not supposed to believe it exists at the point when you tell me
I'm not supposed to believe it just because you provided the evidence
I'm only allowed to believe it after perceiving the falsifiable evidence and feeling COMFORTABLE with it.
But
Isn't Niagara supposed to exist regardless of my perception?
Isn't that what I was trying to prove? That Niagara exists regardless of my perception?
How did I end up at a point where I can only prove Niagara exists based on my perception.

Why can't I prove how Niagara can exist regardless of my perception?
Isn't that what you told me?
Niagara exists regardless of my perception?

oh wait didn't you say if a claim cannot be tested, it is useless and should not even be entertained let alone believed in?

Well guess what.

I cannot test if Niagara exists outside of my perception.

Therefore anyone that tells me Niagara exists regardless of what I believe needs to know that what they are saying is absolutely useless to me.

Can you interchange the word Niagara to Reality & tell me where did I go wrong?
Or is the statement Reality exists regardless of how I perceive it absolutely useless & therefore should not be believed in?

So tell me again Whiskey. Why should I believe Reality exists regardless of my perception? Or even more important how did you ever come to that conclusion? Was it a leap of faith or did you use some scientific approach?

Does Niagara exists before my awareness of it?
How do I prove this?
Is there any way of going back in time to see if Niagara existed before my awareness? No.
Is there any way for me to collect the data without & before me being aware of it? No.
Is there any way for me to read the data without & before me being aware of it? No.
Is there any way for me to change the data without & before me being aware of it? No.
Is there any way for me to touch the data without & before me being aware of it? No.
Is there any way for me to predict the outcome without & before me being aware of the outcome? No

It is undemonstrable, untestable, unfalsifiable, unrepeatable, unpredictable.

Guess what

I cannot test if Niagara exists before my awareness of it.

Therefore anyone that tells me Niagara exists before my awareness of it needs to know that what they are saying is absolutely useless to me.

Can you interchange the word Niagara to Reality & tell me where did I go wrong?
Or is the statement Reality exists before my awareness of it absolutely useless & therefore should not be believed in?

So tell me again Whiskey. Why should I believe Reality exists before my awareness of it? Or even more important how did you ever come to that conclusion? Was it a leap of faith or did you use some scientific approach?
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19-01-2016, 12:58 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
*Reads AgShane's reply*

Drinking Beverage

Yup, I'm out.

Nothing but dodging replies and not answering points/posts and questions.

*Waves*

It'll be fun/interesting when AgShane steps into other threads and offers opinions etc.
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19-01-2016, 01:02 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(19-01-2016 12:58 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  *Reads AgShane's reply*

Drinking Beverage

Yup, I'm out.

Nothing but dodging replies and not answering points/posts and questions.

*Waves*

It'll be fun/interesting when AgShane steps into other threads and offers opinions etc.
I was looking forward to you replying my last post on whiskey's behalf.
It was nice chatting
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19-01-2016, 01:39 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
Quote:Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?

The ground at the bottom of the cliff seems to think so.
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19-01-2016, 01:42 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(19-01-2016 01:39 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
Quote:Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?

The ground at the bottom of the cliff seems to think so.
It is an untestable hypothesis.
Therefore completely useless & should not be believed in.
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