Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
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20-01-2016, 10:37 AM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2016 11:52 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 09:30 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 04:30 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I am glad you see the absurdity of the question.

Then why did you ask twice for me to explain why it was absurd?

You better watch out, quick turns like this one are bound to give you whiplash.

3/10, I've seen many more artful. You have a nice day.
This is not a claim:
"Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?"
It is a question.
I did not make the claim that "Reality exists outside of perception"
Even until now I have never made that claim throughout this entire thread.
In fact I am against that claim because it cannot be tested.
I have said that over 8 times in this thread.

You keep saying "Built into your question is the assumption that something exists outside of perception"
Ok. So I didn't say it. I am totally against it in 8 of my replies & yet somehow you still draw the conclusion that I claim "something exists outside of my perception" based on a question I asked?

Let's reverse roles:

Thump: Do you believe that God exists?
Shane: Why are you claiming that God exists?
Thump: I didn't claim that God exists.
Shane: But it's built into your question.
Thump: I just asked the question to see if you believed that God exist, so I could condemn your belief.
Shane: I would like to see you prove that God exists without assuming God exists in your argument
Thump: But I don't believe that God exists, so why would I want to prove it? Facepalm
Shane: Turns like these will give you whiplash.
Thump: Oh my God! STFU Frusty
Shane: See you just admitted you believe in God
Thump: Shocking

This is how our conversation went:

Shane: "Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?"

Thump: "The ground at the bottom of the cliff seems to think so."

Shane: "It is an untestable hypothesis. Therefore completely useless & should not be believed in."

Thump: "It's pretty testable to those willing to jump ... and those cleaning up the mess."

Shane: "What do you think you are testing for? Providing you lived. You will be severely injured, in pain & proven that you your perception of reality is 100% real. Which is the same thing I believe in. The question still lies "what exists outside of perception?"

Thump: "Yet here you are interacting with people. That seems to me to indicate that you don't believe what you are propounding."

Shane: "I am propounding that the reality I perceive via personal experience is 100% real. I am unsure about anything else, but we don't propound uncertainty now do we?"

Thump: "The question is useless, given that your question has an inbuilt and undemonstrated claim."

Shane: "My question is not a claim nor does it have one."

Thump: "It has a claim built into it. Please read what I write to avoid misunderstandings." "You're conflating "real" and "objective". The two words are not homonyms."

Shane: "I don't see the claim. Maybe I am wrong. Can you tell me what the claim is?" "I shouldn't be using the word real then?"

Thump: "You shouldn't be using sophistry, is my point. Thoughts can be real, but they still aren't objective, by definition"

Thump: "Built into your question is the assumption that something exists outside of perception. That is a claim. It is also an unfounded claim. I'm looking forward to you explaining that without appealing to sensory perception to make your point"

Shane: "How can I pos rep you? You are the 4th person to have admitted that in this thread & it is by far the most honest position to have taken. I am glad you see the absurdity of the question. There are many in this thread that would have us believe that they can prove reality exists outside of perception."

Thump: Then why did you ask twice for me to explain why it was absurd? You better watch out, quick turns like this one are bound to give you whiplash. 3/10, I've seen many more artful. You have a nice day.

Shane: Shocking
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20-01-2016, 11:41 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
I think we need a new thread section.
General mental fapping

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20-01-2016, 11:49 AM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2016 12:18 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 09:02 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 08:06 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  No I am not absolutely certain about these claims. It is a belief based on the strong evidence provided. Not a claim to absolute certainty.

Which was in your past when you read about it.
So .... it seems you have been confabulating on TTA since arrival.
We haven't proven the past exist outside of self awareness as yet nor have we tested it without relying on the testimony of others.

We sometimes believe simply because people tell us things exist and not because we have actually experienced it ourselves. This just boils down to survival & comfort I suppose. I do not condemn beliefs & rationality, only dishonesty. Concepts such as believing in God & Reality outside of perception seem as useless to me as you probably see God alone as being useless. Not because of it's unlikeliness, but because it cannot be properly tested. I will not deny that reality existing before self awareness seems more rational given the nature of the world we live in, but I do not express absolute belief in such a claim because of my inability to test it properly. No I am not a Solipsist as I do not believe in only my existence. Once I can experience it I know it's real as far as my own self awareness & perception is concerned. This belief means I strongly believe in my own existence as much as I believe in yours & not the dishonestly selfish world view Solipsists take.
If however you still define that as Solipsism then I would probably say we are all secretly Solipsists.

You are going to have a field day with my next statement but it must be said if I am to be honest with myself.

After considering the implications of the statement that "If a claim is untestable it is totally useless"
I don't think this is necessarily true anymore.
Condemn me if you must. I will humbly take the criticism for the sake of personal honesty. I am entitled to change my mind if I come across a better world view.
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20-01-2016, 12:18 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 04:50 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 03:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  That article makes the common error of stating an interpretational dichotomy that doesn't actually exist. i.e. "wave/particle duality".

Photons and particles are what they are - not waves, not particles. Those are metaphors or interpretations imposed by humans trying to grasp the nature of things.

The act of measuring physically alters the state of things regardless of a conscious observer. The idea that the physical state is altered by a conscious obsever is quantum woo.
It is the measuring - not the consciousness of the measuring - that alters the state.

This is what Heisenberg was pointing out - that we cannot be certain of the state without measuring and measuring affects the state.
Heisenberg isn't quoted anywhere in the article.
Truscot was:
"The atoms did not travel from A to B. It was only when they were measured at the end of the journey that their wave-like or particle-like behavior was brought into existence," said Truscott. "It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it.”

It was a delayed choice experiment.
Eg. Yesterday's lottery numbers always have odd numbers in it 90% of the time whenever I check the results in the newspapers first, but whenever I check the results on the TV first the probability is 10%. You will get the same results every time even if someone else tries it.
When you include space/time in the equation the determining factor is not measuring vs not measuring, it is choosing how to check the results.
I can change my past reality based on what I choose to do in the present, thereby manipulating my present reality.

But since we are on the topic of quoting scientists:
As scientist Dr. Dean Radin said in a paper replicating the double-slit experiment, “We compel the electron to assume a definite position. We ourselves produce the results of the measurement.”  Now, a common response to this is “It’s not us who is measuring the electron, it’s the machine that is doing the observation”.  A machine is simply an extension of our consciousness.  This is like saying “It’s not me who is observing the boat way across the lake, it is the binoculars”. The machine does not itself observe anything any more than a computer that interprets sound waves can

Would be cool if we could test my lottery experiment though.
Would we make a jail for lottery tampering?

Whether Hesienberg was quoted or not, what Chas said is true, and your point is utterly irrelevant. One assumes that in discussing Quantum Mechanics, a general knowledge of the subject is in place. Clearly you have very little, considering your misstatements in this thread.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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20-01-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 04:30 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How can I pos rep you?

You can't until you rid yourself of your neg rep.

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20-01-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 11:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  We haven't proven the past exist outside of self awareness as yet nor have we tested it without relying on the testimony of others.

I see.

You seem to be perfectly comfortable asserting things about the past with respect to QM, yet when you jump over to your solipcism, you change your tune. And you're back to your false dichotomy, false binary, black-and-white thinking, bifurcation, denying a conjunct, the either–or fallacy, fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses, the fallacy of false choice, the fallacy of the false alternative, or the fallacy of the excluded middle.

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20-01-2016, 12:34 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 12:18 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 04:50 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Heisenberg isn't quoted anywhere in the article.
Truscot was:
"The atoms did not travel from A to B. It was only when they were measured at the end of the journey that their wave-like or particle-like behavior was brought into existence," said Truscott. "It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it.”

It was a delayed choice experiment.
Eg. Yesterday's lottery numbers always have odd numbers in it 90% of the time whenever I check the results in the newspapers first, but whenever I check the results on the TV first the probability is 10%. You will get the same results every time even if someone else tries it.
When you include space/time in the equation the determining factor is not measuring vs not measuring, it is choosing how to check the results.
I can change my past reality based on what I choose to do in the present, thereby manipulating my present reality.

But since we are on the topic of quoting scientists:
As scientist Dr. Dean Radin said in a paper replicating the double-slit experiment, “We compel the electron to assume a definite position. We ourselves produce the results of the measurement.”  Now, a common response to this is “It’s not us who is measuring the electron, it’s the machine that is doing the observation”.  A machine is simply an extension of our consciousness.  This is like saying “It’s not me who is observing the boat way across the lake, it is the binoculars”. The machine does not itself observe anything any more than a computer that interprets sound waves can

Would be cool if we could test my lottery experiment though.
Would we make a jail for lottery tampering?

Whether Hesienberg was quoted or not, what Chas said is true, and your point is utterly irrelevant. One assumes that in discussing Quantum Mechanics, a general knowledge of the subject is in place. Clearly you have very little, considering your misstatements in this thread.
I think Chas agreed it is possible to test for consciousness changing the past. He disagreed if they had done the proper test since it was quite possible the point of measuring the photon collapsed the wave function due to interaction. The reason why it is still possible to do the test properly is because there are alternative means to observe a photon without damaging or absorbing it. A link was posted as a source of scientific reference.
I also am uncertain if the test was done correctly as well.

I have also since then provided a method that can test if Consciousness can affect the past and thus change present reality.
It involves A Photon, Particle Spin, Particle/ Wave Duality, Atomic Clocks, Double Slits, a distant lab & having 2 groups of data in front of you the day after the test.
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20-01-2016, 12:40 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 12:28 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 11:49 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  We haven't proven the past exist outside of self awareness as yet nor have we tested it without relying on the testimony of others.

I see.

You seem to be perfectly comfortable asserting things about the past with respect to QM, yet when you jump over to your solipcism, you change your tune. And you're back to your false dichotomy, false binary, black-and-white thinking, bifurcation, denying a conjunct, the either–or fallacy, fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses, the fallacy of false choice, the fallacy of the false alternative, or the fallacy of the excluded middle.
Your only means of testing it is by other persons testimony.
Your belief is based on the testimony of others.
You have Blind Faith & I don't.
If you think I am a moron for not having blind faith in something then you are entitled to your opinion, but it does not make your belief true.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph...lind+Faith
Blind faith can be practiced by anyone including atheists. Blind faith occurs when someone puts their faith into something without any evidence.
Atheists have blind faith in naturalism, abiogenesis and the multiverse as well as several other hypothesizes which are evidenceless.
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20-01-2016, 01:17 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2016 02:58 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 12:40 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph...lind+Faith
Blind faith can be practiced by anyone including atheists. Blind faith occurs when someone puts their faith into something without any evidence.
Atheists have blind faith in naturalism, abiogenesis and the multiverse as well as several other hypothesizes which are evidenceless.

No references. No support for multiple assertions. Worthless drivel as usual.
Anything that exists is "natural". There is no evidence for anything else. Relying on the tested, reproduced work of others, (who have been proven multiple times to be credible and reliable) is not "blind faith''. Nice try though. Thanks for demonstrating how completely neurotic you are. Nobel prize winners (which you are not) have demonstrated various possible pathways for abiogenesis. Your ignorance of science really is astounding. No one has "faith" in the multiverse. It's a proposal, and there are and will be ways to test it. As usual, you muddy the waters by flinging poo that has nothing to do with the points placed in front of you in order to evade. And finally, I'm not an atheist.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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20-01-2016, 03:38 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 01:17 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 12:40 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph...lind+Faith
Blind faith can be practiced by anyone including atheists. Blind faith occurs when someone puts their faith into something without any evidence.
Atheists have blind faith in naturalism, abiogenesis and the multiverse as well as several other hypothesizes which are evidenceless.

No references. No support for multiple assertions. Worthless drivel as usual.
Anything that exists is "natural". There is no evidence for anything else. Relying on the tested, reproduced work of others, (who have been proven multiple times to be credible and reliable) is not "blind faith''. Nice try though. Thanks for demonstrating how completely neurotic you are. Nobel prize winners (which you are not) have demonstrated various possible pathways for abiogenesis. Your ignorance of science really is astounding. No one has "faith" in the multiverse. It's a proposal, and there are and will be ways to test it. As usual, you muddy the waters by flinging poo that has nothing to do with the points placed in front of you in order to evade. And finally, I'm not an atheist.
Bucky your best argument for the existence of anything are the testimonies of other people rather than direct emperical evidence. This is not sound logic. The claim to emperical evidence is not emperical evidence.
Who are you trying to fool?
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