Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
20-01-2016, 03:57 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2016 04:09 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 03:38 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Bucky your best argument for the existence of anything are the testimonies of other people rather than direct emperical evidence. This is not sound logic.

Complete bullshit. Assertions with no references or even an attempt at an argument. One cannot be an expert in every field. One has to trust the trained credentialed authorities in their fields. They are reliable, IF they practice according to the established guidelines in their own fields, (as oppoed to amateurs in everything, like you).

Quote:The claim to emperical evidence is not emperical evidence.
Who are you trying to fool?

Just as I thought. You have no clue how science works. YOU canot judge what is and what is not sound evidence in every specialty and sub-specialty in science.
You are a charlatan. You are neither a philosopher nor scientist. You are a fake bullshitter, trying to appear intelligent. Where are you going to get all this evidennce ? Do all the experiments yourself ? Right. I seem to recall you telling me to read someone elses data .... um .... why .... just today, I think. Weeping You never did the experiment you referenced. YOU accepted their study. Hmmm. I think you are a royal liar and a totally dishonest hypocrite, now, aren't you.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2016, 05:03 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 09:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-01-2016 09:34 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
For the sake of simplicity "I" or "my" refers to the author(s) of this post.

No it doesn't exist outside of your perception. When you die, reality dies right along with it. There's no objective reality, just a subjective one, just like there are no objective moral truths, just subjective ones. Reality, existence, are terms we apply to that abstract mental image.

If there is a supposed reality outside of your perception, you wouldn't be able to know it, because we're all prisoners of our own heads.

I was hoping that was satire, but I think you're actually serious. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 05:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 09:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No it doesn't exist outside of your perception. When you die, reality dies right along with it. There's no objective reality, just a subjective one, just like there are no objective moral truths, just subjective ones. Reality, existence, are terms we apply to that abstract mental image.

If there is a supposed reality outside of your perception, you wouldn't be able to know it, because we're all prisoners of our own heads.

I was hoping that was satire, but I think you're actually serious. Consider
Maybe he meant there is no way to experience reality objectively?

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2016, 05:45 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 05:06 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 05:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  I was hoping that was satire, but I think you're actually serious. Consider
Maybe he meant there is no way to experience reality objectively?
You will never hear me make a claim like Tomasia because if I don't know I prefer to say I just don't know.
He is strong in his belief that all that exists is within his self awareness.
Same way Bucky is strong in his belief that things exist outside of his self awareness.
Both of them assert a claim that cannot be tested and accept it blindly.

You can never really prove what reality looks like outside of your perception, because the instant you prove anything it becomes part of your perception.
The very act of trying to prove it alone requires you to not be self aware up until the point it has been proven.
When/If you wake from that state to get the answer you will be back to reality and whoever is giving you the information is going to be part of your self awareness. So your back to square one again.

How do they get around that paradox is what I have been asking over and over and over and over and over.

Yet all I get from Bucky is stuff like:
"it's been proven" "scientists said so" "people said so" "there is a mountain of evidence"
When will he ever realize:
It's a paradox.
You can't begin testing for something if it is impossible to test for.
Apparently only a scientist is allowed to talk about science & philosophers about philosophy.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2016, 05:59 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 05:45 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Same way Bucky is strong in his belief that things exist outside of his self awareness.

You are a dishonest liar. If in fact QM follows the rules you pointed to this morning, then that reality has always been in place. It didn't start happening when it was discovered.

(20-01-2016 05:45 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  You can never really prove what reality looks like outside of your perception, because the instant you prove anything it becomes part of your perception.

But you entoirely MISS the point. The POINT is not to keep it outside perception. The point is to find out about it, perceived or not. You again have created a false and meaningless dichotomy.

(20-01-2016 05:45 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  The very act of trying to prove it alone requires you to not be self aware up until the point it has been proven.
When/If you wake from that state to get the answer you will be back to reality and whoever is giving you the information is going to be part of your self awareness. So your back to square one again.

You are not. You know more.

(20-01-2016 05:45 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How do they get around that paradox is what I have been asking over and over and over and over and over.

That's only important if you're obcessed with the paradox, and have your head up your ass.

(20-01-2016 05:45 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Yet all I get from Bucky is stuff like:
"it's been proven" "scientists said so" "people said so" "there is a mountain of evidence"
When will he ever realize:
It's a paradox.
You can't begin testing for something if it is impossible to test for.
Apparently only a scientist is allowed to talk about science & philosophers about philosophy.

I don't give a flying fuck about your idiot paradox. The fact is, science discovers MORE than it knew before, (which YOU yourself point to when it serves your dishonest purpose). You just spin your OC wheels, and get nowhere and wallow in your fucking philosobabble. No one gives a shit about your idiot paradoxes and obcessions.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2016, 06:08 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(19-01-2016 09:31 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  This has led some scientists to speculate that without consciousness, the universe would exist indeterminately as a sea of quantum potentiality.  In other words, physical reality cannot first exist without subjectivity.  Without consciousness, there is no physical matter.

This is known as the Participatory Anthropic Principle, and was first proposed by physicist Dr. John Wheeler.  Essentially, any possible universe that we can imagine that does not have conscious observers in it can be ruled out immediately.   Consciousness is therefore the ground of being and must have existed prior to the physical universe.  Consciousness literally creates the physical world.

You are mistaking Wheeler's participatory universe for Robert Lanza's biocentrism. Wheeler's universe does not require consciousness, only interaction.

Does this mean humans are necessary to the existence of the universe? While conscious observers certainly partake in the creation of the participatory universe envisioned by Wheeler, they are not the only, or even primary, way by which quantum potentials become real. Ordinary matter and radiation play the dominant roles. Wheeler likes to use the example of a high-energy particle released by a radioactive element like radium in Earth's crust. The particle, as with the photons in the two-slit experiment, exists in many possible states at once, traveling in every possible direction, not quite real and solid until it interacts with something, say a piece of mica in Earth's crust. When that happens, one of those many different probable outcomes becomes real. In this case the mica, not a conscious being, is the object that transforms what might happen into what does happen. The trail of disrupted atoms left in the mica by the high-energy particle becomes part of the real world.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like GirlyMan's post
20-01-2016, 06:15 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(19-01-2016 09:31 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Time dilation shows that space/time is created by perception through measurement
The double slit experiment shows that particle/wave duality is created by perception through measurement
The atomic grating experiment shows that Atomic Constructive/Destructive lack of interference is created by perception through measurement
Entangled Particle spin is created by perception through measurement
General relativity predicts that time does not exist from the perspective of a Photon.
Philosophy shows that we cannot test what exists for certain outside of our perception.
Creation need not have to have a beginning if space/time is created by perception

What do you think these findings suggest?

You left out Wheeler's delayed choice experiment. It is not at all clear whether these apparent paradoxes are intrinsic to "reality" or just quirks/limitations of human intelligence and reasoning and yes perception. In either case, reality is nothing like we perceive it.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
20-01-2016, 06:25 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 05:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 09:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No it doesn't exist outside of your perception. When you die, reality dies right along with it. There's no objective reality, just a subjective one, just like there are no objective moral truths, just subjective ones. Reality, existence, are terms we apply to that abstract mental image.

If there is a supposed reality outside of your perception, you wouldn't be able to know it, because we're all prisoners of our own heads.

I was hoping that was satire, but I think you're actually serious. Consider

It's neither. It's his response given how the world "Has to be" if there isn't God in his manner. He has reverted to stating things in that manner all the time. it's still somehow one of his crutch points against non-god as if hie value on these things were right.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2016, 06:31 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(19-01-2016 09:31 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Time dilation shows that space/time is created by perception through measurement
The double slit experiment shows that particle/wave duality is created by perception through measurement
The atomic grating experiment shows that Atomic Constructive/Destructive lack of interference is created by perception through measurement
Entangled Particle spin is created by perception through measurement
General relativity predicts that time does not exist from the perspective of a Photon.
Philosophy shows that we cannot test what exists for certain outside of our perception.
Creation need not have to have a beginning if space/time is created by perception

Fixed it for you.

Time dilation shows that space/time is created through measurement
The double slit experiment shows that particle/wave duality is created through measurement
The atomic grating experiment shows that Atomic Constructive/Destructive lack of interference is created through measurement
Entangled Particle spin is created through measurement

Wheeler thinks a rock is a perfectly good measurement device independent of any observation of the measurement.

(19-01-2016 09:31 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  General relativity predicts that time does not exist from the perspective of a Photon.

A photon does not have a "perspective".

(19-01-2016 09:31 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Philosophy shows that we cannot test what exists for certain outside of our perception.

Philosophy shows that we cannot test for certain that our perceptions exist.

(19-01-2016 09:31 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Creation need not have to have a beginning if space/time is created by perception

Wheeler suggests that perception is unnecessary. Only material interaction.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like GirlyMan's post
20-01-2016, 06:56 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2016 07:31 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 06:15 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 09:31 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Time dilation shows that space/time is created by perception through measurement
The double slit experiment shows that particle/wave duality is created by perception through measurement
The atomic grating experiment shows that Atomic Constructive/Destructive lack of interference is created by perception through measurement
Entangled Particle spin is created by perception through measurement
General relativity predicts that time does not exist from the perspective of a Photon.
Philosophy shows that we cannot test what exists for certain outside of our perception.
Creation need not have to have a beginning if space/time is created by perception

What do you think these findings suggest?

You left out Wheeler's delayed choice experiment. It is not at all clear whether these apparent paradoxes are intrinsic to "reality" or just quirks/limitations of human intelligence and reasoning and yes perception. In either case, reality is nothing like we think it is.
Definitely can't argue against that.
It shouldn't be like we think it is. Everyone's reality cannot be the same if we are to believe others exist & they also perceive reality through self awareness.
Reality would exist at any point in the spectrum & still be reality based on perception. It need not be a case that your reality is greater or better than another.
In my op I asked "Does my reality exist outside my perception" the obvious answer is no because of the wording. It's a rhetorical question.
It can only be answered "No" because my reality can only be my own and no one else's.

How does one lay claim to a reality that is not their own?
Science tells us:
Insects & animals observe a totally different world than our own. What they see & smell we may never experience it. Dolphins & bats have sonar perception by which they see the world around them in a manner we can only imagine but never truly perceive unless we become them.
Even among us humans we do not all share the same personal reality.

Here is the ugly truth about the evasive true reality.
A few of us will never see the same color as the rest.
Some may never hear a B sharp.
Some will never be able to smell a good Pizza.
Some will never be able to taste the sweetness of a fruit in the same way you do.
Some people do not even derive pleasure from sex.
What makes one think they do not know what is true reality?
Does one think simply because one belongs to the majority one might know a better reality?
If we all went blind tomorrow except you due to some disease does that mean your reality is closer to a false reality because you belong to the minority?
Which entity get's to make the claim their reality is the true reality?
What makes a reality closer to the spectrum of truth than the spectrum of false?
Does adding more ways to perceive reality make it more true?
If yes a cocaine addict would have a truer reality than mine or yours.
How would you even begin to define true reality without assuming the perception of another being?
To make the claim there can be a true reality is no different than the belief in an all powerful God as a being that can perceive such a reality.
How can an atheist believe in the existence of a true reality that could possibly exist outside of what we can test for & yet deny the existence of god?
What is the deciding factor that makes one claim rational and the other a fairy tale?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Agnostic Shane's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: