Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
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20-01-2016, 08:51 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 08:12 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 07:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  The evidence that we perceive a single common reality is overwhelming.
The evidence that we perceive a very uncommon reality is also overwhelming
What makes it more common than uncommon?

It is the experience that is common. This is not a characterization of reality, but of experience.

Quote:Do we all share the same friends?
Do we all watch the same shows?
Do we all eat the same food?
Do we all read the same books?
In fact everything that you claim as common is only common if we describe it commonly.

Oh, for fuck's sake. Facepalm

Quote:No one reality is more common than it is different.
How do you account for those that cannot perceive your reality?

This is not about the movies we watch or the foods we eat, it is about the experience of sensing, our experience of matter and energy.

Quote:The born deaf, mute, blind, color blind.

They still stub their toes, feel heat and cold.

Quote:How do you explain to them that everything is common even when they can barely perceive what you could possibly mean by that.

There is nothing to explain. That there are some whose senses are limited is of no importance.

Quote:To them everything is quite uncommon unless you tell them it's common.

You're off on a silly tangent.

Quote:War of the world's was broadcasted in a very common way and people believed it and became scared. They asked their neighbors who also heard it and became more scared because of how commonly the story was verified by another Neighbour.
Testimonies of people have proven to be useless at determining the truth.
Religious people do it all the time and convert 1000's to the fold.
It's inbuilt in us to believe in things this way. It's an evolutionary by product of fear of the unknown.
Atheism has the key to liberate us from fairy tale belief's, but it involves experiencing the truth on our own and stop believing in everything people tell us even if it bends conveniently to our own desires for certainty.
Their is nothing wrong with being uncertain, it drives us to seek the truth.

This has nothing to do with testimonies.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-01-2016, 08:51 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 08:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 08:39 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Did someone make the claim that there wasn't truth?

Yeah. You.

Quote:It is just as likely to believe that there is no reality before thought awareness as it is to believe that there is one. Any statement I make which claims absolute truth requires foreknowledge of reality before thought awareness, except one.
I know reality exists because thoughts exist. Thoughts being simply "the process of thinking". Thoughts are the only known true reality.

Not why would you have to "seek" your own thoughts" ?
I already stated that "thoughts" here refer to self awareness which includes all the things I can perceive through personal experience.

Clearly you must see the difference between the following 2 statements:
Thoughts are the only true reality
Thoughts are the only known true reality

Instead of me trying to explain the difference. I would love to hear what you think the difference is between the 2 statements.
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20-01-2016, 08:56 PM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2016 04:49 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 08:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 08:12 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  The evidence that we perceive a very uncommon reality is also overwhelming
What makes it more common than uncommon?

It is the experience that is common. This is not a characterization of reality, but of experience.

Quote:Do we all share the same friends?
Do we all watch the same shows?
Do we all eat the same food?
Do we all read the same books?
In fact everything that you claim as common is only common if we describe it commonly.

Oh, for fuck's sake. Facepalm

Quote:No one reality is more common than it is different.
How do you account for those that cannot perceive your reality?

This is not about the movies we watch or the foods we eat, it is about the experience of sensing, our experience of matter and energy.

Quote:The born deaf, mute, blind, color blind.

They still stub their toes, feel heat and cold.

Quote:How do you explain to them that everything is common even when they can barely perceive what you could possibly mean by that.

There is nothing to explain. That there are some whose senses are limited is of no importance.

Quote:To them everything is quite uncommon unless you tell them it's common.

You're off on a silly tangent.

Quote:War of the world's was broadcasted in a very common way and people believed it and became scared. They asked their neighbors who also heard it and became more scared because of how commonly the story was verified by another Neighbour.
Testimonies of people have proven to be useless at determining the truth.
Religious people do it all the time and convert 1000's to the fold.
It's inbuilt in us to believe in things this way. It's an evolutionary by product of fear of the unknown.
Atheism has the key to liberate us from fairy tale belief's, but it involves experiencing the truth on our own and stop believing in everything people tell us even if it bends conveniently to our own desires for certainty.
Their is nothing wrong with being uncertain, it drives us to seek the truth.

This has nothing to do with testimonies.
Then we both agree.
A mountain of evidence without personal experience & awareness is nothing more than a testimony.
A belief in the personal experience of another instead of your own is the practice of blind faith based on others testimonies.
The #1 tool of Christianity which brainwashes the masses into belief in the irrational.
Find an experience of common & significant importance to you and I can convince you it's real each & everytime by my own testimonies.
Don't you see these are the very things that had us locked in the world of Religion for so long.
It's a play on our evolutionary weaknesses to want security in common certainty amongst those that we entrust to make the correct decisions & experiments for us.
If you want to be safe don't just listen to every thing they tell you. Use logical thought experiments if you cant do the research yourself. Withhold judgement until you feel comfortable with the information you personally experienced.
You think businesses don't fabricate and manipulate evidence to get you to buy their products?
You think scientists aren't driven by personal agenda or financial motivation?
You think the government doesn't lie to you just to stay in politics?

If it smells fishy don't just ignore it.
If you haven't experienced it for yourself and a possibility exists that it could harm you would it make more sense to stay in the dark or try to get your own light.
If your happy and comfortable in the dark then why are you even looking in the direction of the danger?

Have you ever heard the story of the cave?
By Socrates.
The only way to know for certain is to experience it in person. It's sometimes a painful process but worth the effort for the purpose of self betterment.
The person trying to help you out of a darkness you are already comfortable with would seem like a threat to you even if all he is telling you is come see for yourself. Even if he himself was in the darkness with you at first.
He isn't telling you to believe him based on his testimony. He is saying go experience it yourself and make you own judgement.
If you are happy in the dark & you think curiosity is dangerous then betterment is more probable to never come your way.
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20-01-2016, 10:34 PM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 08:56 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 08:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is the experience that is common. This is not a characterization of reality, but of experience.


Oh, for fuck's sake. Facepalm


This is not about the movies we watch or the foods we eat, it is about the experience of sensing, our experience of matter and energy.


They still stub their toes, feel heat and cold.


There is nothing to explain. That there are some whose senses are limited is of no importance.


You're off on a silly tangent.


This has nothing to do with testimonies.
Then we both agree.
A mountain of evidence without personal experience & awareness is nothing more than a testimony.
A belief in the personal experience of another instead of your own is the practice of blind faith based on others testimonies.
The #1 tool of Christianity which brainwashes the masses into belief in the irrational.
Find an experience of common & significant importance to you and I can convince you it's real each & everytime by my own testimonies.
Don't you see these are the very things that had us locked in the world of Religion for so long.
It's a play on our evolutionary weaknesses to want security in common certainty amongst those that we entrust to make the correct decisions & experiments for us.
If you want to be safe don't just listen to every thing they tell you. Use logical thought experiments if you cant do the research yourself. Withhold judgement until you feel comfortable with the information you personally experienced.
You think businesses don't fabricate and manipulate evidence to get you to buy their products?
You think scientists aren't driven by personal agenda or financial motivation?
You think the government doesn't lie to you just to stay in politics?

If it smells fishy don't just ignore it.
If you haven't experienced it for yourself and a possibility exists that it could harm you would it make more sense to stay in the dark or try to get your own light.
If your happy and comfortable in the dark then why are you even looking in the direction of the danger?

Have you ever heard the story of the cave?
By Socrates.
The only way to know for certain is to experience it in person. It's sometimes a painful process but worth the effort for the purpose of self betterment.
Do person trying to help you out of a darkness you are already comfortable with would seem like a threat to you even if all he is telling you is come see for yourself. Even if he himself was in the darkness with you at first.
He isn't telling you to believe him based on his testimony. He is saying go experience it yourself and make you own judgement.
If you are happy in the dark & you think curiosity is dangerous then betterment is more probable to never come your way.

Confused

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-01-2016, 12:45 AM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2016 09:07 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 10:37 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  This is not a claim:
"Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?"
It is a question.
I did not make the claim that "Reality exists outside of perception"

It is implicit in your question. Perhaps you should reword it if that's not what you meant to say.

(20-01-2016 10:37 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  You keep saying "Built into your question is the assumption that something exists outside of perception"
Ok. So I didn't say it. I am totally against it in 8 of my replies & yet somehow you The assumption is built into your queswtion.still draw the conclusion that I claim "something exists outside of my perception" based on a question I asked?

The assumption is built into your question. If you don't understand your own unquestioned premises, I'm not really going to find any further discussion with you educational. You're expected to bring something to the table besides dissimulative rhetoric, semantical horseshit, unquestioned premises, and sophistry.

(20-01-2016 10:37 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Let's reverse roles:

Thump: Do you believe that God exists?
Shane: Why are you claiming that God exists?
Thump: I didn't claim that God exists.
Shane: But it's built into your question.
Thump: I just asked the question to see if you believed that God exist, so I could condemn your belief.
Shane: I would like to see you prove that God exists without assuming God exists in your argument
Thump: But I don't believe that God exists, so why would I want to prove it? Facepalm
Shane: Turns like these will give you whiplash.
Thump: Oh my God! STFU Frusty
Shane: See you just admitted you believe in God
Thump: Shocking

I'll let you figure out for yourself how this corruption of our exchange is wrong ... if you have that much insight.

(20-01-2016 10:37 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  This is how our conversation went:

[blahblahblah]

Shane: Shocking

Yes, I read the conversation as I participated. Why would you want to subject anyone to your inane ramblings a second time, when you haven't had the integrity to address their points the first time?

Simply because you deny an undemonstrated premise doesn't mean it isn't there, and everyone reading this thread can see my point but you.

You can have the last word. Life is too short to waste time bandying words with someone whose communication skills are so poor.
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21-01-2016, 06:09 AM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2016 06:42 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 10:34 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 08:56 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Then we both agree.
A mountain of evidence without personal experience & awareness is nothing more than a testimony.
A belief in the personal experience of another instead of your own is the practice of blind faith based on others testimonies.
The #1 tool of Christianity which brainwashes the masses into belief in the irrational.
Find an experience of common & significant importance to you and I can convince you it's real each & everytime by my own testimonies.
Don't you see these are the very things that had us locked in the world of Religion for so long.
It's a play on our evolutionary weaknesses to want security in common certainty amongst those that we entrust to make the correct decisions & experiments for us.
If you want to be safe don't just listen to every thing they tell you. Use logical thought experiments if you cant do the research yourself. Withhold judgement until you feel comfortable with the information you personally experienced.
You think businesses don't fabricate and manipulate evidence to get you to buy their products?
You think scientists aren't driven by personal agenda or financial motivation?
You think the government doesn't lie to you just to stay in politics?

If it smells fishy don't just ignore it.
If you haven't experienced it for yourself and a possibility exists that it could harm you would it make more sense to stay in the dark or try to get your own light.
If your happy and comfortable in the dark then why are you even looking in the direction of the danger?

Have you ever heard the story of the cave?
By Socrates.
The only way to know for certain is to experience it in person. It's sometimes a painful process but worth the effort for the purpose of self betterment.
The person trying to help you out of a darkness you are already comfortable with would seem like a threat to you even if all he is telling you is come see for yourself. Even if he himself was in the darkness with you at first.
He isn't telling you to believe him based on his testimony. He is saying go experience it yourself and make you own judgement.
If you are happy in the dark & you think curiosity is dangerous then betterment is more probable to never come your way.

Confused
Consider a time dilated being for instance.

Here is the story:
We invented a way to accelerate a ship at light speed in the LHC.
We put your dad in it, never told him what we were doing, hit launch the instant the door closed, stopped the ship 80 years later & opened the door.
Because of the effects of time dilation this is what your dad will see.
He walked into the ship, we closed the door and someone instantly opens it.
An old man gets into the ship, sits down with your dad and tells him the following:
The world is now 80 years older, you are his son & you have a mountain of evidence to support your claim.
You give him a laptop with Internet and countless books that support your claim. A mountain of evidence in the form of information only.
He thinks this is some kind of joke for obvious reasons. Surely the websites and books are just fabrications meant to trick his rationale belief. It just isn't rationale to believe you just because you said so or wrote it on a website or some books.
But then he steps out of the ship with you.
You show him 80 years of news articles.
You know only things his son will know
All clocks & calendars outside the ship show 80 years have gone by.
Buildings have disappeared.
Everything points to the rationale belief that 80 years really did just pass in a single moment
His personal experience with this new environment & reality is the way he creates this rational belief.
People died, the world changed, nothing looks the same any more
He now believes your testimony to be true.
Not because what you said made rationale sense, but because he experienced what you told him for himself.
Personal experience is the backbone of rationale belief, not the testimonies of others.

This is what you will see when you opened that door:
Not a single molecule on your dad's body has changed since you closed that door 80 years ago.
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21-01-2016, 06:42 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 08:56 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 08:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is the experience that is common. This is not a characterization of reality, but of experience.


Oh, for fuck's sake. Facepalm


This is not about the movies we watch or the foods we eat, it is about the experience of sensing, our experience of matter and energy.


They still stub their toes, feel heat and cold.


There is nothing to explain. That there are some whose senses are limited is of no importance.


You're off on a silly tangent.


This has nothing to do with testimonies.
Then we both agree.

No, I think not.

Quote:A mountain of evidence without personal experience & awareness is nothing more than a testimony.

No, it is not. Evidence and testimony are not synonyms.

Quote:A belief in the personal experience of another instead of your own is the practice of blind faith based on others testimonies.

No, an informed, conditional acceptance of evidence from a trustworthy source is not faith.

Quote:The #1 tool of Christianity which brainwashes the masses into belief in the irrational.

It's a good thing that that bears no relation to science.

Quote:Find an experience of common & significant importance to you and I can convince you it's real each & everytime by my own testimonies.

What does that mean? You can only convince me with evidence. And then it is only provisionally.

Quote:Don't you see these are the very things that had us locked in the world of Religion for so long.

You are confused. Stop conflating evidence and testimony.

Quote:It's a play on our evolutionary weaknesses to want security in common certainty amongst those that we entrust to make the correct decisions & experiments for us.
If you want to be safe don't just listen to every thing they tell you. Use logical thought experiments if you cant do the research yourself. Withhold judgement until you feel comfortable with the information you personally experienced.
You think businesses don't fabricate and manipulate evidence to get you to buy their products?
You think scientists aren't driven by personal agenda or financial motivation?
You think the government doesn't lie to you just to stay in politics?

If it smells fishy don't just ignore it.
If you haven't experienced it for yourself and a possibility exists that it could harm you would it make more sense to stay in the dark or try to get your own light.
If your happy and comfortable in the dark then why are you even looking in the direction of the danger?

Have you ever heard the story of the cave?
By Socrates.
The only way to know for certain is to experience it in person. It's sometimes a painful process but worth the effort for the purpose of self betterment.
The person trying to help you out of a darkness you are already comfortable with would seem like a threat to you even if all he is telling you is come see for yourself. Even if he himself was in the darkness with you at first.
He isn't telling you to believe him based on his testimony. He is saying go experience it yourself and make you own judgement.
If you are happy in the dark & you think curiosity is dangerous then betterment is more probable to never come your way.

Who are you preaching to? I don't expect or seek certainty.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-01-2016, 07:03 AM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2016 07:26 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(21-01-2016 06:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 08:56 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Then we both agree.

No, I think not.

Quote:A mountain of evidence without personal experience & awareness is nothing more than a testimony.

No, it is not. Evidence and testimony are not synonyms.

Quote:A belief in the personal experience of another instead of your own is the practice of blind faith based on others testimonies.

No, an informed, conditional acceptance of evidence from a trustworthy source is not faith.

Quote:The #1 tool of Christianity which brainwashes the masses into belief in the irrational.

It's a good thing that that bears no relation to science.

Quote:Find an experience of common & significant importance to you and I can convince you it's real each & everytime by my own testimonies.

What does that mean? You can only convince me with evidence. And then it is only provisionally.

Quote:Don't you see these are the very things that had us locked in the world of Religion for so long.

You are confused. Stop conflating evidence and testimony.

Quote:It's a play on our evolutionary weaknesses to want security in common certainty amongst those that we entrust to make the correct decisions & experiments for us.
If you want to be safe don't just listen to every thing they tell you. Use logical thought experiments if you cant do the research yourself. Withhold judgement until you feel comfortable with the information you personally experienced.
You think businesses don't fabricate and manipulate evidence to get you to buy their products?
You think scientists aren't driven by personal agenda or financial motivation?
You think the government doesn't lie to you just to stay in politics?

If it smells fishy don't just ignore it.
If you haven't experienced it for yourself and a possibility exists that it could harm you would it make more sense to stay in the dark or try to get your own light.
If your happy and comfortable in the dark then why are you even looking in the direction of the danger?

Have you ever heard the story of the cave?
By Socrates.
The only way to know for certain is to experience it in person. It's sometimes a painful process but worth the effort for the purpose of self betterment.
The person trying to help you out of a darkness you are already comfortable with would seem like a threat to you even if all he is telling you is come see for yourself. Even if he himself was in the darkness with you at first.
He isn't telling you to believe him based on his testimony. He is saying go experience it yourself and make you own judgement.
If you are happy in the dark & you think curiosity is dangerous then betterment is more probable to never come your way.

Who are you preaching to? I don't expect or seek certainty.
I don't expect certainty either, but I can't deny my existence is certain.
I am the original poster. I have the right to defend or explain my original post if someone here disagrees with it.

There are countless replies here that disagree with the 2 claims in my original post:
I cannot deny my existence is certain.
My reality cannot exist outside of my perception.

If you do not disagree with these statements then why are we still discussing it. We could find another topic to talk about as this has gotten boring.
The topic title is an obvious rhetorical question & I get that members are enraged by rhetorical questions. It does not give one the opportunity to properly respond if all arguments have to be based on a presupposition. It's not that I don't want to remove the presupposition from the question. I don't know how. No one else here seems to know how either.
It's a stupid question? So what?
Here are some more stupid questions:
Why do we care so much about stupid questions to even discuss them?
Why does science seek to answer the stupid questions with more effort than the not so stupid ones?
Why do the answers to stupid questions help better society so much?
Here are some more stupid topics we will surely discuss:
"Being a scientist is based on asking stupid questions"
"Stupid questions are the best kind of questions to ask"

The following claim wasn't made by me but somehow posters think it should be discussed as they seem to think it is relevant to the topic.
"Things exist outside of perception"

I discussed it, nothing was actually proven & we are still left with an unsubstantiated claim.
It has gotten old & boring now. My interest in the topic fades by the hour. Soon I will not reply anymore unless some new argument is brought to support the claim.

A claim which I never made in the first place.
I vote to close the thread.
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21-01-2016, 07:09 AM
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(20-01-2016 08:20 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I can see nothing wrong with telling someone what I perceive to be real through personal experience is very real to me. This in no way implies that I think their reality is any less real than mine & if they could somehow prove to me that my experience was untrue then I see no reason to continue to doubt them. Why believe in someone else's certainty when they haven't presented you with any real evidence for your personal experience to observe?
It further reiterates my claim that perspective reality is a form of absolute certainty

They would be presenting you with evidence for THEIR personal experience, not your experience.

People don't run around saying "I am absolutely certain of my personal experience". Maybe you do. It's simply bullshit. Maybe it happens in your bizarre world. It's a non-concern. Educated adults often say, "in my opinion" etc. We are well aware that our personal experience is lacking in many ways, on the level that huiman perception operates. There are things much much smaller we never perceive, and much larger which are beyond perception. Only a fool would claim their perspective reality is absolutely certain.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-01-2016, 07:11 AM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2016 07:18 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Does my reality exists regardless of how I perceive it?
(21-01-2016 07:09 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 08:20 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I can see nothing wrong with telling someone what I perceive to be real through personal experience is very real to me. This in no way implies that I think their reality is any less real than mine & if they could somehow prove to me that my experience was untrue then I see no reason to continue to doubt them. Why believe in someone else's certainty when they haven't presented you with any real evidence for your personal experience to observe?
It further reiterates my claim that perspective reality is a form of absolute certainty

They would be presenting you with evidence for THEIR personal experience, not your experience.

People don't run around saying "I am absolutely certain of my personal experience". Maybe you do. It's simply bullshit. Maybe it happens in your bizarre world. It's a non-concern. Educated adults often say, "in my opinion" etc. We are well aware that our personal experience is lacking in many ways, on the level that huiman perception operates. There are things much much smaller we never perceive, and much larger which are beyond perception. Only a fool would claim their perspective reality is absolutely certain.
Well guess what. I just did. Does it bother you?

Do we run around saying "I am absolutely certain of others personal experience"?
It might bother me too, but it hasn't stopped you from repeating it.
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