Does resurrection fit within the hostorical Jesus model?
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19-11-2016, 03:19 PM
Does resurrection fit within the hostorical Jesus model?
The question in essence is that-
Why did the apostles think that Jesus was resurrected?

A little context-

Firstly, for the purposes of my question, please assume a default logical(or historical) perspective. The question does not work otherwise.

Secondly,assume that Jesus was a jewish apocalyptic preacher who lived in the 1st century.(I believe this is the majority consensus among NT scholars)

I realize that there are no predictions in the old testament for the Messiah to be resurrected even if there are claims for his death(allegedly).

So, the question is why did the apostles think Jesus was resurrected at all?
How did the apostles reach to this conclusion?

The problem is that as a Jewish apocalyptic preacher who mostly talked about the coming of the kingdom of God, the apostles didn't know he was going to be crucified(considering portions of gospels where he predicts his future as highly questionable).The resurrection narratives also have discrepancies but that is not my biggest problem.

Paul is said to have met with Peter and Jesus' brother James some 3 years after the traditional date of Jesus' death and stayed with them for atleast a couple of weeks. During this stay I'm pretty sure they talked about Jesus. Did it never come up that no such thing happened, if the resurrection was indeed a story, the apostles should have set things straight with Paul.

In contrast, Paul is quite vociferous in expressing that salvation is only attainable through belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Which in turn means that the apostles didn't object to Paul's views or even that they are the ones to confirm such views.

Another broader question this raises is that, knowing how the church turns out to be in the years that follow Jesus' death, why didn't the apostles object to any of it? Since these people followed Jesus closely, they of all people must know that Jesus never called himself God and that he preached how to keep the law(or something of that sort) because the end is near. Why would they switch positions after his death?

What could possibly have happened that all the apostles thought that Jesus was resurrected!? Their belief in his resurrection was so firm that it became the basis of Christianity!
You could say that the apostles were lying, but I really doubt that, since they were the followers of a man who thought the end was near and the wicked will get what they deserve.

So, the dilemma, Jesus can't have been resurrected(because logic) but all the apostles seem to think so! Why is that?

You might argue that any miracle Jesus performed has the same problem, but none of the miracles are attested by Paul and also NO other story is as essential to Christianity and the resurrection of Christ.
(P.S- I have read a couple books on the subject, but this issue is not addressed satisfyingly. I don't want to read anymore books just to understand this! I am a student, I have plenty of books to read anyday Tongue)
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19-11-2016, 03:24 PM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2016 07:32 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Does resurrection fit within the hostorical Jesus model?
You don't know what the followers of Jesus thought.
Paul (a Jew) said Jesus was "exalted", ("raised up" ... just like the other Jewish apocalyptic heroes), not "resurrected".

"How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee"
Dr. Bart Ehrman.
"The Trouble With Resurrection"
Dr. B.B. Scott

If your brother rose from the dead, and you were writing letters to Christians, would you not remember to mention the MOST AMAZING miracle ever ?
James didn't think it was so special.
Facepalm

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19-11-2016, 04:25 PM
RE: Does resurrection fit within the hostorical Jesus model?
Ugaritic Baal, Melqart, Adonis, Eshmun, Osiris and Dumuzi, are some egyptian and can Canaanint gods that came back from the dead. The Greeks had a couple of these too. Alcmene, Castor, Heracles, and Melicertes and mortal men that became gods.

Or what about Lazarus? Jesus supposedly brought that guy back from the dead. No ticker tape parade for him.

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19-11-2016, 04:35 PM
RE: Does resurrection fit within the hostorical Jesus model?
(19-11-2016 03:19 PM)underdogFTW Wrote:  I realize that there are no predictions in the old testament for the Messiah to be resurrected even if there are claims for his death(allegedly).

So, the question is why did the apostles think Jesus was resurrected at all?
How did the apostles reach to this conclusion?

The concept of a resurrected messiah is legitimately a Jewish one. In Jewish culture, we say that if a messiah cannot be found among the living, one will be resurrected from among the dead. Don't forget that Jews believe that all righteous people will be resurrected from the dead in the messianic era, so it fits in perfectly that the messiah might be among that group.

The writers of the NT apparently only had a very rough understanding of Jewish teachings because they got a few key details wrong. For starters, a resurrected messiah must stick around to actually be the messiah for the Jewish people, and he can't have been murdered in his lifetime.
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19-11-2016, 05:21 PM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2016 07:37 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Does resurrection fit within the hostorical Jesus model?
(19-11-2016 04:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Don't forget that Jews believe that all righteous people will be resurrected from the dead in the messianic era, so it fits in perfectly that the messiah might be among that group.

They may now, but they didn't in ancient times. Immortality was a continuation of the family, not personal immortality.
The historical/cultural development of the concept of individual immortality is one of the most interesting "things" in history, and in Hebrew cultural change.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

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19-11-2016, 06:13 PM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2016 06:22 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Does resurrection fit within the hostorical Jesus model?
(19-11-2016 03:19 PM)underdogFTW Wrote:  The question in essence is that-
Why did the apostles think that Jesus was resurrected?

A little context-

Firstly, for the purposes of my question, please assume a default logical(or historical) perspective. The question does not work otherwise.

Secondly,assume that Jesus was a jewish apocalyptic preacher who lived in the 1st century.(I believe this is the majority consensus among NT scholars)

I realize that there are no predictions in the old testament for the Messiah to be resurrected even if there are claims for his death(allegedly).

So, the question is why did the apostles think Jesus was resurrected at all?
How did the apostles reach to this conclusion?

The problem is that as a Jewish apocalyptic preacher who mostly talked about the coming of the kingdom of God, the apostles didn't know he was going to be crucified(considering portions of gospels where he predicts his future as highly questionable).The resurrection narratives also have discrepancies but that is not my biggest problem.

Paul is said to have met with Peter and Jesus' brother James some 3 years after the traditional date of Jesus' death and stayed with them for atleast a couple of weeks. During this stay I'm pretty sure they talked about Jesus. Did it never come up that no such thing happened, if the resurrection was indeed a story, the apostles should have set things straight with Paul.

In contrast, Paul is quite vociferous in expressing that salvation is only attainable through belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Which in turn means that the apostles didn't object to Paul's views or even that they are the ones to confirm such views.

Another broader question this raises is that, knowing how the church turns out to be in the years that follow Jesus' death, why didn't the apostles object to any of it? Since these people followed Jesus closely, they of all people must know that Jesus never called himself God and that he preached how to keep the law(or something of that sort) because the end is near. Why would they switch positions after his death?

What could possibly have happened that all the apostles thought that Jesus was resurrected!? Their belief in his resurrection was so firm that it became the basis of Christianity!
You could say that the apostles were lying, but I really doubt that, since they were the followers of a man who thought the end was near and the wicked will get what they deserve.

So, the dilemma, Jesus can't have been resurrected(because logic) but all the apostles seem to think so! Why is that?

You might argue that any miracle Jesus performed has the same problem, but none of the miracles are attested by Paul and also NO other story is as essential to Christianity and the resurrection of Christ.
(P.S- I have read a couple books on the subject, but this issue is not addressed satisfyingly. I don't want to read anymore books just to understand this! I am a student, I have plenty of books to read anyday Tongue)

If your messiah got killed in a disgraceful manner, what story would help you save face from this humiliating debacle?

Yeah Jesus got humiliated and killed for being an insurrectionist, but he rose from the dead and then floated up to heaven so no evidence, but we all swear he did, honest!

And he's coming back soon, so you just mind your manners!

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19-11-2016, 08:14 PM
RE: Does resurrection fit within the hostorical Jesus model?
(19-11-2016 03:19 PM)underdogFTW Wrote:  (P.S- I have read a couple books on the subject, but this issue is not addressed satisfyingly. I don't want to read anymore books just to understand this! I am a student, I have plenty of books to read anyday Tongue)

Well, that's unfortunate as the most rational response is to suggest some credible scholarship. Fortunately, there's a prophet on hand to supply the completely irrational. The experience that led me to become aware of being a prophet began with seeing a speck on the wall while I was at work. As I watched, the spot expanded to become a "seed" of information, containing within the vision of a table upon which was spread vast quanties of papaer recording the mathematics necessary to document this seed's journey from the singularity though the expansion of the universe including the celestial mechanics necessary to plot a course 13.82 dillion years downstream to a singular target spinning away at 1000kph local on the eighth floor.

Later, I considered this method of communication and wondered it's reasoning; the solution to which became painfully obvious. God is dead. Consider creation; if all there is, is god, what is the material of creation?

The body of god.

To steer this shipwreck back to a more rational shore, unfortunately Laugh out load I'd have to suggest some credible scholarship, but I have the key. Research dying/risen gods. Horus comes to mind, and that girl Persephone; and these were powerful mysteries common at the time.

Verily I say unto you as a prophet, the only way to assure the success of your prophesy is by having god dead.

Whatever else Paul was, he's history's most successful prophet.

(The stupid brain used to have a whole feature length vision of why this is necessary, it has since been deleted to make room for cat videos.)

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19-11-2016, 10:26 PM
RE: Does resurrection fit within the hostorical Jesus model?
(19-11-2016 05:21 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(19-11-2016 04:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Don't forget that Jews believe that all righteous people will be resurrected from the dead in the messianic era, so it fits in perfectly that the messiah might be among that group.

They may now, but they didn't in ancient times. Immortality was a continuation of the family, not personal immortality.
The historical/cultural development of the concept of individual immortality is one of the most interesting "things" in history, and in Hebrew cultural change.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

I'm surprised to hear you say this because I generally trust your education, but that doesn't match what I've been taught. I've been told that the Jewish concept of resurrection was firmly established well before the time Jesus was said to have lived. My understanding is that the story of Jesus is rooted in Jewish teachings. I've been taught that the resurrection is biblical (Daniel comes to mind), it's Rabbinic, its Talmudic, and it's further detailed by the Rambam and Rashi (among others).

The link added was to post that was too cumbersome, but if you're in a position to summarize, that would be really appreciated.
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20-11-2016, 12:57 AM
RE: Does resurrection fit within the hostorical Jesus model?
(19-11-2016 03:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If your brother rose from the dead, and you were writing letters to Christians, would you not remember to mention the MOST AMAZING miracle ever ?
James didn't think it was so special.
Facepalm

If you dont mind could you please summarize, from the books you have quoted, the sections in question?
About James, there is no evidence that James writing the letter is James, the brother of Jesus. One would think that it would help him with his authority if he mentions his relation with Christ himself, yet he doesn't.

BUT, let us consider your case for a moment, assuming James never thought Jesus rose up from the dead. Wouldn't James correct Paul when he met him? Wouldn't Paul take the advice of the brother of Jesus seriously?

(19-11-2016 04:25 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Ugaritic Baal, Melqart, Adonis, Eshmun, Osiris and Dumuzi, are some egyptian and can Canaanint gods that came back from the dead. The Greeks had a couple of these too. Alcmene, Castor, Heracles, and Melicertes and mortal men that became gods.

(19-11-2016 06:13 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  If your messiah got killed in a disgraceful manner, what story would help you save face from this humiliating debacle?

(19-11-2016 08:14 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  To steer this shipwreck back to a more rational shore, unfortunately Laugh out load I'd have to suggest some credible scholarship, but I have the key. Research dying/risen gods. Horus comes to mind, and that girl Persephone; and these were powerful mysteries common at the time.

I personally think that thinking the Jewish messiah was modelled by Jews using pagan gods is a little extreme.

BUT,again, let us consider this case and also the case that the resurrection story was to save face(and even if it was hinted in scripture)-
The problem I have with this explanation is that this makes the apostles flat out liars.

Imagine I'm a follower of Gandhi. I've left everything to follow him and to win the freedom struggle against the British. This would imply Im a firm believer in Gandhian principles, mainly non violence, TRUTH,etc. When Gandhi died, it would be wrong to tell everyone that Gandhi was actually sent by God to free the people of India because that would be lying and Gandhi would not have stood for such behaviour.(Just a rough analogy)

Similarly, Jesus, a man who advocated righteousness because the end of times is near, would not condone such behaviour by the apostles. And so I am inclined to believe that the apostles themselves wouldn't LIE, but must have a reason for believing that Jesus rose from the dead.
What is that reason?

Am I making any false assumptions here, or am I missing something?
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20-11-2016, 01:11 AM
RE: Does resurrection fit within the hostorical Jesus model?
(20-11-2016 12:57 AM)underdogFTW Wrote:  Am I making any false assumptions here, or am I missing something?

Yeah, missing doing yer own dang research. Laugh out load

(20-11-2016 12:57 AM)underdogFTW Wrote:  Similarly, Jesus, a man who advocated righteousness because the end of times is near, would not condone such behaviour by the apostles. And so I am inclined to believe that the apostles themselves wouldn't LIE, but must have a reason for believing that Jesus rose from the dead.
What is that reason?

"Apostles themselves wouldn't lie" is patently absurd. Besides, ain't about them, it's about Paul, whose Tarsus was saturated with Mithra's mystery religion.

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