Does the United States still have a functional democracy (or republic)?
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14-05-2014, 09:42 PM
RE: Does the United States still have a functional democracy (or republic)?
The US is a klepto-plutocracy: Rule by rich thieves.

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15-05-2014, 11:59 AM
RE: Does the United States still have a functional democracy (or republic)?
(14-05-2014 08:20 PM)djhall Wrote:  
(14-05-2014 07:45 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Limits on individuals spending for political adds and publicly funded campaigns could solve a lot of problems. We wouldn't be the first... or the second... or third country to do that you know.

Well, we tried to have some of that, but the money interests just run "issue ads" that supposedly aren't for or against any particular candidate to get around them.

I don't really have a problem with issue adds so long as they don't endorse or condemn a candidate. The biggest problem right now is that candidates are utterly dependent on campaign contributions and independent spending. They owe them something, instead of owing their voters something.
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18-05-2014, 11:11 AM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2014 11:15 AM by TrainWreck.)
RE: Does the United States still have a functional democracy (or republic)?
(14-05-2014 02:15 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Does america still have a functional democracy, or has it become something else?

It was never a democracy - it's a republic, and the representatives are not held to any technical qualification standards - so you get a lot of charismatic empty suit ass-wipes like Obama and Hillary.

The political system has always been corrupt, it's just that it is has become increasingly inefficient as communications has improved, the government has been completely deliberated (expanded), and the need for new laws has diminished.

Sooner, or later, more people realize that we need a new constitution to handle the government operations that they did not understand two hundred years ago.

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Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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19-05-2014, 07:14 AM
RE: Does the United States still have a functional democracy (or republic)?
(14-05-2014 07:45 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Limits on individuals spending for political adds and publicly funded campaigns could solve a lot of problems. We wouldn't be the first... or the second... or third country to do that you know.

Really??? It would seem that every Western government would yearn to have a political campaign circus like ours, because it is commerce that employs and pays people - that's kind of the reason why they keep the circus going. Here we are two years away and we're already gearing up for "Hillary 2016!"

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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22-05-2014, 07:57 AM
RE: Does the United States still have a functional democracy (or republic)?
(14-05-2014 02:15 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I am going to make a lot of claims here and I probably won't justify them. I will leave it to the people better educated to ultimately refute and confirm my observations. I am not fixed in my position and will go along with the side that makes the best arguments.
How are those arguments going - come to any conclusions yet???

(14-05-2014 02:15 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  That being said, there are some very disturbing trends in the United States that seem so very anti-democratic. We have the structure of a republic, and in that respect our government has not changed much in the last hundred or so years.
That is a simple overview that most people like to believe, because it does not require them to do the complex anaylsis.

(14-05-2014 02:15 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  However the dynamics of american politics has changed pretty dramatically and the biggest different between america now and america in another time in history is the influence of money.
I think you are mistaken - the biggest change is the sophisticated communications that we have now

(14-05-2014 02:15 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Now I wouldn't argue that America was better or worse a hundred and fifty years ago. In general we have a more educated and informative public do to cool stuff like everybody learns to read in public school and 24 hour news. Back in the old days the government was a bunch of people you never met and knew very little about.
I will argue that the people still do not know there elected representatives, and do not understand the operations of government anymore than most of the people at any juncture in history, because it is difficult, because it is much larger than it was previously, and the constitution system is not accurately reflective of how the government is run, because it has usually been run in the corrupt.

(14-05-2014 02:15 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  This media thing is a double edged sword though. I won't quote it, but the data shows overwhelmingly that a lot of money tends to buy you success in elections. The person to win a seat in congress or the presidency is almost always the person who raised the most money for their campaign. With the recent Citizens United court ruling allowing for private individuals to donate unlimited funds for political advertising, it becomes possible to simply drown out the competition rather than debate. Enough negative attack adds and clearly bias political commercials makes just about anybody look electable.
And nobody has a solution because nobody wants to realize that there should be a graduated system for govering, especially since we can define the government to the detail that they could not in 1787; and they did not have the educated pool of people to do the work that we can assign now.

(14-05-2014 02:15 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  In recent years the influence of lobbyist in the capital seems to be a reflection of that. Big companies spend millions every year to lobby, and unions and special interests too. . . We have some of the most archaic and backwards copy right laws and we write enough tax code loop holes. . . Our future generations who have to pay back that debt and the poor being the most likely victims.
It is a very complicated problem, and it has to do with the bell curve theory - what do you want to do with the stupid religious people who insist on staying ignorant??? they are getting in the way, don't you think???

(14-05-2014 02:15 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Now it might be possible to except this as good ol' red blooded capitalism so long as our government still appears to function as a democracy. Call me cynical, but I actually don't place that much emphasis on which asshole represents me in government so long as that asshole accurately represents me (me being one of their many constituents). Alarmingly enough though, there have been numerous examples in recent history where public opinion was overwhelmingly on one side of an issue, but curiously congress went the other way . . . I don't know the details of what went on with that bill, but it sure smells like shit doesn't it? What have heard eludes to back door dealings and a heavy handed dose of a ton of fucking pressure, but I won't claim to have any good authority on that.
I thought the "Change Washington," campaign was going to address that problem once we elected the black guy - wasn't that what he meant?

Have you ever tried reading these laws that they pass now - they are very complicated. how do you think they got so complicated, and what did you know about your representative that lead you to believe that he could understand it?

I'll bet if that shit had "God" and "Christianity" written in the pages you fucking atheists would read it and learn to understand it!

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Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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22-05-2014, 11:17 AM
RE: Does the United States still have a functional democracy (or republic)?
(15-05-2014 11:59 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I don't really have a problem with issue adds so long as they don't endorse or condemn a candidate. The biggest problem right now is that candidates are utterly dependent on campaign contributions and independent spending. They owe them something, instead of owing their voters something.

Okay, you win - you are right.

What do we do to fix it?

Don't leave me hanging - tell me what I can do to solve this problem - you be the Jay-Z brains of fixing the problem.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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22-05-2014, 12:50 PM
RE: Does the United States still have a functional democracy (or republic)?
Something's wrong, Trainwreck just made four lucid posts in a row.

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22-05-2014, 04:25 PM
RE: Does the United States still have a functional democracy (or republic)?
Unfortunately, the old saying is true, "Every nation gets the government it deserves."

While it's always been true that, "money talks", until recently we've considered that a BAD thing. We used to call it a, "corrupting influence." Now we call it, "speech."

Until the majority of people start thinking critically, (something religion tells them, they must NEVER do) and start paying attention to what's actually going on, instead of allowing ourselves to be spoon-fed whatever tripe is being served just because someone else is paying for the spoon, we can't expect things to get any better.
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23-05-2014, 06:41 AM
RE: Does the United States still have a functional democracy (or republic)?
(22-05-2014 04:25 PM)imlemuel Wrote:  Until the majority of people start thinking critically, (something religion tells them, they must NEVER do) and start paying attention to what's actually going on, instead of allowing ourselves to be spoon-fed whatever tripe is being served just because someone else is paying for the spoon, we can't expect things to get any better.

Okay, let's suppose you are right, the non-religious are more observant of the problems of contemporary government - what do they have to offer as a solution?

I do not believe they have anything. I believe they only thing that non-religious people believe in is that when the religious stop being religious that that will solve all the problems.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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23-05-2014, 07:41 AM
RE: Does the United States still have a functional democracy (or republic)?
(23-05-2014 06:41 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 04:25 PM)imlemuel Wrote:  Until the majority of people start thinking critically, (something religion tells them, they must NEVER do) and start paying attention to what's actually going on, instead of allowing ourselves to be spoon-fed whatever tripe is being served just because someone else is paying for the spoon, we can't expect things to get any better.

Okay, let's suppose you are right, the non-religious are more observant of the problems of contemporary government - what do they have to offer as a solution?

I do not believe they have anything. I believe they only thing that non-religious people believe in is that when the religious stop being religious that that will solve all the problems.

And you are wrong, yet again. No one actually believes that, no one has professed that, you must be hallucinating that.

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