Dogmatic Atheism?
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08-07-2017, 12:30 PM
RE: Dogmatic Atheism?
(08-07-2017 11:21 AM)slw0606 Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 11:16 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I know it was harsh, and I sincerely apologize if it hurt your feelings more than I intended (I'll admit that I did mean to sting a little.) You didn't seem to be picking the point up from previous posts, both from me and other posters here.

I've never been a part of a brainwashing religion. I've seen it second-hand, I've seen it unfold in others and I've seen the damage play out, but I've never experienced it first hand. I can only imagine how difficult it must be to break out of this way of thinking. But I think one of the early steps in breaking the cycle is to recognize how deep the rabbit hole goes. How has this damaging way of thinking infiltrated your core personality? In what way has it set the baseline for things and defined norms for you that aren't normal at all?

FYI: Just so you understand who you're talking to here, I'm not an atheist. I'm a Jew. I really like the atheists, and on many matters I can relate to them, but I've come to a different conclusion on the subject of a deity.

Aliza:

It is YOUR posts I had hoped to be getting here on this forum.

If I say something someone disagrees with and they critique me, that's fine. I appreciate critiques.

When someone is just plain nasty and insults me for the sake of insulting me rather than expressing their views, that is unfortunate. As I learn who these people are, I will start ignoring them and not responding to them. It is a waste of my time.

Thanks Aliza.

>.>

....I insult people all the time.... But at least I try to make damn sure they deserve it first. Also, I don't hold grudges against people. How I treat others is entirely dependent on their actions. Personal policy. Fair warning Smile

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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08-07-2017, 12:37 PM
RE: Dogmatic Atheism?
(08-07-2017 12:23 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  God doesn't exist because gods have never been shown to be possible. So it's as appropriate to say "god doesn't exist" as it is to say that "magical unicorns don't exist."

It's not being dogmatic to be confident if your confidence is well-grounded in reality, evidence, logic, and reason


Cheers
TheBeardedDude

>.> Is it dogmatic though if I decide to assign myself a daily blaspheme quota? I mean.... I only do it cause I think it's fucking hilarious, but...

I fully agree with ya though bearded dude. And I can't and won't say that a god or gods or goddesses can't or definitively don't exist. But I can be pretty confident that they don't based on a lack of evidence, like you said at least as confident as I am that magic, unicorns, and magical unicorns don't exist (however through the power of genetics I will one day create the worlds first unicorn dammit)

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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08-07-2017, 12:42 PM
Dogmatic Atheism?
(08-07-2017 12:37 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 12:23 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  God doesn't exist because gods have never been shown to be possible. So it's as appropriate to say "god doesn't exist" as it is to say that "magical unicorns don't exist."

It's not being dogmatic to be confident if your confidence is well-grounded in reality, evidence, logic, and reason


Cheers
TheBeardedDude

>.> Is it dogmatic though if I decide to assign myself a daily blaspheme quota? I mean.... I only do it cause I think it's fucking hilarious, but...

I fully agree with ya though bearded dude. And I can't and won't say that a god or gods or goddesses can't or definitively don't exist. But I can be pretty confident that they don't based on a lack of evidence, like you said at least as confident as I am that magic, unicorns, and magical unicorns don't exist (however through the power of genetics I will one day create the worlds first unicorn dammit)


Considering that anything that doesn't exist will have (by definition) no evidence for or against it, it seems like a rather silly quibble to try and tell people not to say that things don't exist when those things negate what we know from our rigorous scientific attempts to explain the universe.

I can appreciate the nuance between "I believe gods don't exist" and "I lack a belief in a god due to a paucity of evidence." The latter is more explanatory, but the former is a condensed version of the latter for many of us.


Cheers
TheBeardedDude

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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08-07-2017, 12:48 PM
RE: Dogmatic Atheism?
(08-07-2017 11:21 AM)slw0606 Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 11:16 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I know it was harsh, and I sincerely apologize if it hurt your feelings more than I intended (I'll admit that I did mean to sting a little.) You didn't seem to be picking the point up from previous posts, both from me and other posters here.

I've never been a part of a brainwashing religion. I've seen it second-hand, I've seen it unfold in others and I've seen the damage play out, but I've never experienced it first hand. I can only imagine how difficult it must be to break out of this way of thinking. But I think one of the early steps in breaking the cycle is to recognize how deep the rabbit hole goes. How has this damaging way of thinking infiltrated your core personality? In what way has it set the baseline for things and defined norms for you that aren't normal at all?

FYI: Just so you understand who you're talking to here, I'm not an atheist. I'm a Jew. I really like the atheists, and on many matters I can relate to them, but I've come to a different conclusion on the subject of a deity.

Aliza:

It is YOUR posts I had hoped to be getting here on this forum.

If I say something someone disagrees with and they critique me, that's fine. I appreciate critiques.

When someone is just plain nasty and insults me for the sake of insulting me rather than expressing their views, that is unfortunate. As I learn who these people are, I will start ignoring them and not responding to them. It is a waste of my time.

Thanks Aliza.

And...you are also passive-aggressive. A message to Aliza with digs at others. Tsk, tsk.

I am one of those people...please use your ignore function, I don't think there's a maximum number of people you can list there.

You continue to show that you want to dictate how people interact with you.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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08-07-2017, 12:53 PM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2017 01:01 PM by Robvalue.)
RE: Dogmatic Atheism?
Not many people take such a strong stance, and if they do, it's up to them to back it up.

I agree with others here that people cannot generally choose their beliefs. It makes evolutionary sense. How dangerous would it be if we could tinker with our beliefs at will?

The first problem is defining what a "God" is. In around 90% of discussions I've had with theists, we don't get this far. So I can't have an opinion on something when they don't even know what it is. I can only assume they are describing something in their imagination.

In the cases where it is defined, it's either incoherent at worst or unfalsifiable at best. It's perfectly reasonable for me to believe that a very specific nonsense-filled cartoon character God is not a real thing. If it's a very vague generic creator, I simply have no beliefs. This "God" word covers so many possibilities that it's practically useless, and needs specifying by every theist before any debate. Except for simply relabeling things we know exist, it's never been backed up by anything but assertions and broken arguments.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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08-07-2017, 01:11 PM
RE: Dogmatic Atheism?
(08-07-2017 12:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 12:37 PM)JesseB Wrote:  >.> Is it dogmatic though if I decide to assign myself a daily blaspheme quota? I mean.... I only do it cause I think it's fucking hilarious, but...

I fully agree with ya though bearded dude. And I can't and won't say that a god or gods or goddesses can't or definitively don't exist. But I can be pretty confident that they don't based on a lack of evidence, like you said at least as confident as I am that magic, unicorns, and magical unicorns don't exist (however through the power of genetics I will one day create the worlds first unicorn dammit)


Considering that anything that doesn't exist will have (by definition) no evidence for or against it, it seems like a rather silly quibble to try and tell people not to say that things don't exist when those things negate what we know from our rigorous scientific attempts to explain the universe.

I can appreciate the nuance between "I believe gods don't exist" and "I lack a belief in a god due to a paucity of evidence." The latter is more explanatory, but the former is a condensed version of the latter for many of us.


Cheers
TheBeardedDude

I can't decide if my post makes more sense as a stand-alone comment or a reply to your conversation... but whatever. I'm butting in. Big Grin

My perception is that Christians in general view the subject of G-d in black and white terms. There either definitely is a deity, or there definitely isn’t, and being correct about the matter seems very important to them. I question whether most Christians have considered that maybe it doesn’t matter at all whether there is or isn’t a deity. Maybe you don’t need to know and it’s perfectly fine to not give a shit and just focus on living your life. Why should you need to care whether or not G-d exists, as though answering the question will somehow have a tangible, real-world effect. It should be a personal choice, and provided that it doesn’t render you some kind of social pariah (I’m looking at you, creationists), it should be respected and left alone.

We can demonstrate that people of all faiths (or lack-thereof) and walks of life have ups and downs, positives and negatives, joy and sadness, times of feast and times of famine. Belief or lack of belief in a deity never seems to factor into quality of life.
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08-07-2017, 03:40 PM
RE: Dogmatic Atheism?
(08-07-2017 01:11 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 12:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Considering that anything that doesn't exist will have (by definition) no evidence for or against it, it seems like a rather silly quibble to try and tell people not to say that things don't exist when those things negate what we know from our rigorous scientific attempts to explain the universe.

I can appreciate the nuance between "I believe gods don't exist" and "I lack a belief in a god due to a paucity of evidence." The latter is more explanatory, but the former is a condensed version of the latter for many of us.


Cheers
TheBeardedDude

I can't decide if my post makes more sense as a stand-alone comment or a reply to your conversation... but whatever. I'm butting in. Big Grin

My perception is that Christians in general view the subject of G-d in black and white terms. There either definitely is a deity, or there definitely isn’t, and being correct about the matter seems very important to them. I question whether most Christians have considered that maybe it doesn’t matter at all whether there is or isn’t a deity. Maybe you don’t need to know and it’s perfectly fine to not give a shit and just focus on living your life. Why should you need to care whether or not G-d exists, as though answering the question will somehow have a tangible, real-world effect. It should be a personal choice, and provided that it doesn’t render you some kind of social pariah (I’m looking at you, creationists), it should be respected and left alone.

We can demonstrate that people of all faiths (or lack-thereof) and walks of life have ups and downs, positives and negatives, joy and sadness, times of feast and times of famine. Belief or lack of belief in a deity never seems to factor into quality of life.

I agree, and I find it funny that Christians make such a big deal bout the existence of a deity (also their innate assumption that it's THEIR deity and not say Buddha is kinda funny to me too), cause while I can't demonstrate that no god exists (or could possibly exist), It's pretty fucking easy to demonstrate that the bible is horse shit and the god of the Christians (as they have described and defined him in most versions of Christianity), doesn't exist and can't exist. They made a huge mistake similar to the worshipers of Thor, and Odin. When you define your god well it becomes child's play to demonstrate that it's not real. A deist I wouldn't even bother to debate or argue as their definitions are so fuzzy and nondescript you can't really argue with them, it's also essentially irrelevant because a god that exists outside our world that farts universes and doesn't even know we're here isn't likely to be worth our time investigating, at least not at this stage with no evidence and not enough understanding of THIS world to even begin making a reasonable hypothesis on the subject.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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09-07-2017, 01:12 AM
RE: Dogmatic Atheism?
Indeed, I just don't care whether any of these deities exist. People get way too obsessed about that and assume that it's of supreme importance to atheists. All they're really doing is trying to convince us they're not worshipping thin air. I don't care.

Sure, there may be some atheists who would fall to their knees and worship some impressive looking thing that turns out to be real. But in my experience most have come to terms with living their own life and don't need religion. Personally I'd just be an uninterested theist.

Also, if you have to try this hard to show something is real, it can't be of much consequence even if it is.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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09-07-2017, 03:04 AM
RE: Dogmatic Atheism?
The burden of proof lies upon he who alleges. Religious people should be aware that I'm perfectly willing to believe in god(s), ghosts, mediums, demons, angels, spirits, channeling, miracles, horoscopes, astrology, psychics, Ouija boards, the supernatural, and anything else for that matter, as long as they adhere to one proviso: prove it! That's all I ask for. Just one simple request. Prove it!

Don't give me speculations, guesses, hopes, dreams, wishes, desires, beliefs, faith (or appeals to faith), or indoctrinations. Don't give me one-time-only, non-repeatable, non-testable events. Don't give me internal alterations in one's psychology or physiology which cannot be tested, observed or demonstrated, only felt or believed. And don't give me effects that cannot be related to the supposed cause.

I have no objection to believing in a deity as long as proof based upon a rational standard of knowledge is forthcoming. Is that too much to ask? But surely, theists can't expect me to adopt their beliefs on the basis of what has been presented, thus far. Every "proof" that I've heard and very piece of evidence that I've seen for the existence of God(s) has been easily countered by rational evidence/arguments to the contrary. No convincing evidence for the existence of any deity has ever emerged.

I'm more than willing to listen to theistic arguments or view theistic evidence as long as cross-examination is permitted. No claims which must be shielded from rational scrutiny are worth believing. As conditions now stand, theology rests far more on superstition and faith, than upon facts and reason. Consider
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09-07-2017, 03:19 AM
RE: Dogmatic Atheism?
Dogma: a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.
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