Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
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21-11-2013, 10:42 AM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 10:37 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Personally, I care what you do.

I can't save anyone because your salvation is your choice. I'd like to see you trust Jesus for salvation.

I actually de-converted from Christianity almost one year ago. But I do appreciate someone who is actually concerned, even if I am sure their reasons are wrong. I know where you're coming from.

It's phenomenal how strongly I believed in Christianity once, and I even wrote a novel and published it in hopes it would lead people to Jesus. But a brief allowance of logic and a cold, hard look at reality (From the content of the Bible, to who wrote it, to how it was composed, etc.) changed my outlook within a matter of a month. Perhaps de-conversion is your future?
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21-11-2013, 10:44 AM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 10:37 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 10:18 AM)Flowergurl Wrote:  It's interesting that you say you don't care, yet you are here. I also find it interesting because when I was a Christian, we were taught it was our "job" to care about people's eternities. I mean, those poor unsaved people are going to everlasting torture.

Yet another component that really scares me about Christianity. Even though its core purpose is to "lead people to the Lord", the majority of Christians don't give it a second though and focus on themselves anyway. "Yay I'm going to heaven. Too bad for the rest of you." Smile Instead, they go on forums and troll them.


Personally, I care what you do.

I can't save anyone because your salvation is your choice. I'd like to see you trust Jesus for salvation.

I get what you're saying, PJ... and I don't want you to think I'm jaded.

In John 6 it says that God has to call people to Him in order for there to be salvation. My job is to make myself available to anyone who wants to discuss it. If someone rejects it, I cannot be concerned with that because my faith lies in God's control.

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21-11-2013, 10:49 AM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 09:39 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  My experience has been mostly discredited by several members here, but to me, it's as real as my hand. I can't shake it. I can't get rid of it. I've questioned it... doubted it... but ultimately, I come back to the same conclusion.

Is there a chance that it's a complete delusion? Absolutely. I'm * discrediting that, as it's a viable explanation; however, there is also an equal chance that it's 100% authentic. in my mind, and through my personal experiences, the evidence I see leads me to believing in its authenticity.

(Did you mean to put a not in there Kingsy - cause that didn't make sense contextually.)

I'm glad this subject came up with you, Kingsy; I've been thinking quite a bit about cognitive dissonance.

There are a few reputable scientists who retain and their faith (most often deist) and simply separate it from their science. They actually make no bones about it and state emphatically they keep the two separate.

I can see this in a compartmental sort of way, especially coming from a scientist and I think I can see it coming from a deist pretty well - they seem to be kind of open to whatever the universe throws out there.

But what about the calvinist? Do you find that kind of separation difficult or do you even try to make things separate from your faith? Shy

(21-11-2013 09:48 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  My own problem with Christians is the arrogance that I must believe and do as they do because they cannot know what is right for me.

Yep. That's it for me, too.
My only possible demand might be for all to be on the same page with logic and reason. If that doesn't work for someone, then an explanation from that one might indeed, be necessary. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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21-11-2013, 10:54 AM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 10:49 AM)kim Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 09:39 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  My experience has been mostly discredited by several members here, but to me, it's as real as my hand. I can't shake it. I can't get rid of it. I've questioned it... doubted it... but ultimately, I come back to the same conclusion.

Is there a chance that it's a complete delusion? Absolutely. I'm * discrediting that, as it's a viable explanation; however, there is also an equal chance that it's 100% authentic. in my mind, and through my personal experiences, the evidence I see leads me to believing in its authenticity.

(Did you mean to put a not in there Kingsy - cause that didn't make sense contextually.)

I'm glad this subject came up with you, Kingsy; I've been thinking quite a bit about cognitive dissonance.

There are a few reputable scientists who retain and their faith (most often deist) and simply separate it from their science. They actually make no bones about it and state emphatically they keep the two separate.

I can see this in a compartmental sort of way, especially coming from a scientist and I think I can see it coming from a deist pretty well - they seem to be kind of open to whatever the universe throws out there.

But what about the calvinist? Do you find that kind of separation difficult or do you even try to make things separate from your faith? Shy

(21-11-2013 09:48 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  My own problem with Christians is the arrogance that I must believe and do as they do because they cannot know what is right for me.

Yep. That's it for me, too.
My only possible demand might be for all to be on the same page with logic and reason. If that doesn't work for someone, then an explanation from that one might indeed, be necessary. Shy

lol yes. But I edited it like a minute after posting it. You must have not refreshed the topic.

And no, I don't separate it. It just all kind of makes sense to me. I think the amalgamation is formed perfectly, and I really don't have a belief that isn't reconciled with my Christianity.

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21-11-2013, 11:11 AM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
IF THEY DID they wouldn't be theists.. as simple as that.
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21-11-2013, 11:46 AM (This post was last modified: 21-11-2013 11:50 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 11:11 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  IF THEY DID they wouldn't be theists.. as simple as that.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple.

Many of them do think about it, and they come to the conclusion (however much others may disagree with it), that their beliefs are not out of proportion. You cannot deny that the world is filled with intelligent theists (Ken Miller, Francis Crick, etc.); even if many of us nonbelievers would argue that they're not applying the same level of skepticism, empiricism, and rational to their faith as they do their professional work.

To someone never given a proper education and taught how to think, but rather trained only what to think? Or someone who believes in magic, spirits, and the supernatural? What about when they don't have a firm grasp on our current scientific understanding of reality? Or doesn't understand just how flawed our sensory systems are and how easily we can be deceived into experiencing things that aren't real?

To someone without an adequate education, I can very well imagine how the their beliefs seem eminently plausible to themselves. Even to someone with the tools and knowledge, our world is filled with plenty examples of those able to compartmentalize or rationalize away the inconsistencies. The deep-seated irony here is the the smarter someone is, the better they are at rationalizing their beliefs.

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21-11-2013, 01:06 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 11:46 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 11:11 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  IF THEY DID they wouldn't be theists.. as simple as that.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple.

Many of them do think about it, and they come to the conclusion (however much others may disagree with it), that their beliefs are not out of proportion. You cannot deny that the world is filled with intelligent theists (Ken Miller, Francis Crick, etc.); even if many of us nonbelievers would argue that they're not applying the same level of skepticism, empiricism, and rational to their faith as they do their professional work.

To someone never given a proper education and taught how to think, but rather trained only what to think? Or someone who believes in magic, spirits, and the supernatural? What about when they don't have a firm grasp on our current scientific understanding of reality? Or doesn't understand just how flawed our sensory systems are and how easily we can be deceived into experiencing things that aren't real?

To someone without an adequate education, I can very well imagine how the their beliefs seem eminently plausible to themselves. Even to someone with the tools and knowledge, our world is filled with plenty examples of those able to compartmentalize or rationalize away the inconsistencies. The deep-seated irony here is the the smarter someone is, the better they are at rationalizing their beliefs.

You might want to tidy up that second paragraph just a touch. I hold two degrees - one of which is in Logic & Argumentation and I graduated college when I was 19.....so...... just because someone has had a magical experience (or 13) that they cannot explain does not necessarily mean they've had a life void of education. No. I've been exposed to the same amount of possible education as most anyone else and if nothing else - I clearly have the internet same as you. LOL I'm also 54 years old and not new to this life nor new to exposure. My life has been spent searching and tracking clues......finding NO particular answers. (And I'm not mad about that either lol)

And I disagree that amount of smarts allows a person to rationalize their *beliefs*. Beliefs cannot be rationalized. Those two things do not jive. I wouldn't even begin to try to explain my *beliefs* - not sure I hold any particularly sacred or worthy of sharing. Hell, I don't even begin to explain them to myself. LOL Mostly I've been able to do a process of elimination.......

I do, however, have like a zillion questions. That.......yes that I do have.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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21-11-2013, 01:38 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 10:44 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 10:37 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Personally, I care what you do.

I can't save anyone because your salvation is your choice. I'd like to see you trust Jesus for salvation.

I get what you're saying, PJ... and I don't want you to think I'm jaded.

In John 6 it says that God has to call people to Him in order for there to be salvation. My job is to make myself available to anyone who wants to discuss it. If someone rejects it, I cannot be concerned with that because my faith lies in God's control.


i appreciate that, and my post was in no way designed to knock on you or what you had written. Thanks.
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21-11-2013, 01:38 PM (This post was last modified: 21-11-2013 03:09 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 01:06 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You might want to tidy up that second paragraph just a touch. I hold two degrees - one of which is in Logic & Argumentation and I graduated college when I was 19.....so...... just because someone has had a magical experience (or 13) that they cannot explain does not necessarily mean they've had a life void of education. No. I've been exposed to the same amount of possible education as most anyone else and if nothing else - I clearly have the internet same as you. LOL I'm also 54 years old and not new to this life nor new to exposure. My life has been spent searching and tracking clues......finding NO particular answers. (And I'm not mad about that either lol)

I'm sorry, it was not my intention to insinuate that unexplained powerful experience and education are mutually exclusive. However I don't think that it's mere coincidence that things like substantial miracles (such as the raising of the dead) only ever claim to have occurred in the most backwater and uneducated of places.


(21-11-2013 01:06 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  And I disagree that amount of smarts allows a person to rationalize their *beliefs*. Beliefs cannot be rationalized. Those two things do not jive. I wouldn't even begin to try to explain my *beliefs* - not sure I hold any particularly sacred or worthy of sharing. Hell, I don't even begin to explain them to myself. LOL Mostly I've been able to do a process of elimination.......

I do, however, have like a zillion questions. That.......yes that I do have.

Well, then I'm not sure how else to explain scientists like Ken Miller (an evolutionary biologist and star witness for science in the Kitzmiller v, Dover trial, who also happens to be a devout Catholic), and Francis Collins (who was head of the Human Genome Project, yet thinks a frozen waterfall he found while hiking was evidence of his god). I'd claim that they simply aren't applying the same level of skepticism and rational to their spiritual lives as to their professional ones. If one uses bad logic to rationalize their beliefs (because rationalization is easier than introspection and change), then a more intelligent person could be even better at using bad logic and reasoning to rationalize the beliefs they already have instead of changing them. I imagine that smarter and more creative people have an easier time getting around their cognitive dissonance through rationalization (even if it is bad), because it's still easier than the alternative. It is simply the path of least resistance.

This all makes sense to me, but your mileage may vary. Please feel free to let me know if I failed to adequately explain my reasoning, or if you had any other questions. Thumbsup

:EDIT: Fixed my Collins/Crick mix up. How embarrassing... Unsure

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21-11-2013, 02:00 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 01:38 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It is simply the path of least resistance.

Mostly that. Thumbsup

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