Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
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21-11-2013, 02:09 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 01:06 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 11:46 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Unfortunately, it's not that simple.

Many of them do think about it, and they come to the conclusion (however much others may disagree with it), that their beliefs are not out of proportion. You cannot deny that the world is filled with intelligent theists (Ken Miller, Francis Crick, etc.); even if many of us nonbelievers would argue that they're not applying the same level of skepticism, empiricism, and rational to their faith as they do their professional work.

To someone never given a proper education and taught how to think, but rather trained only what to think? Or someone who believes in magic, spirits, and the supernatural? What about when they don't have a firm grasp on our current scientific understanding of reality? Or doesn't understand just how flawed our sensory systems are and how easily we can be deceived into experiencing things that aren't real?

To someone without an adequate education, I can very well imagine how the their beliefs seem eminently plausible to themselves. Even to someone with the tools and knowledge, our world is filled with plenty examples of those able to compartmentalize or rationalize away the inconsistencies. The deep-seated irony here is the the smarter someone is, the better they are at rationalizing their beliefs.

You might want to tidy up that second paragraph just a touch. I hold two degrees - one of which is in Logic & Argumentation and I graduated college when I was 19.....so...... just because someone has had a magical experience (or 13) that they cannot explain does not necessarily mean they've had a life void of education. No. I've been exposed to the same amount of possible education as most anyone else and if nothing else - I clearly have the internet same as you. LOL I'm also 54 years old and not new to this life nor new to exposure. My life has been spent searching and tracking clues......finding NO particular answers. (And I'm not mad about that either lol)

And I disagree that amount of smarts allows a person to rationalize their *beliefs*. Beliefs cannot be rationalized. Those two things do not jive. I wouldn't even begin to try to explain my *beliefs* - not sure I hold any particularly sacred or worthy of sharing. Hell, I don't even begin to explain them to myself. LOL Mostly I've been able to do a process of elimination.......

I do, however, have like a zillion questions. That.......yes that I do have.

You do understand that unexplained means unexplained, not supernatural. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-11-2013, 02:37 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 01:38 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 01:06 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You might want to tidy up that second paragraph just a touch. I hold two degrees - one of which is in Logic & Argumentation and I graduated college when I was 19.....so...... just because someone has had a magical experience (or 13) that they cannot explain does not necessarily mean they've had a life void of education. No. I've been exposed to the same amount of possible education as most anyone else and if nothing else - I clearly have the internet same as you. LOL I'm also 54 years old and not new to this life nor new to exposure. My life has been spent searching and tracking clues......finding NO particular answers. (And I'm not mad about that either lol)

I'm sorry, it was not my intention to insinuate that unexplained powerful experience and education are mutually exclusive. However I don't think that it's mere coincidence that things like substantial miracles (such as the raising of the dead) only ever claim to have occurred in the most backwater and uneducated of places.


(21-11-2013 01:06 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  And I disagree that amount of smarts allows a person to rationalize their *beliefs*. Beliefs cannot be rationalized. Those two things do not jive. I wouldn't even begin to try to explain my *beliefs* - not sure I hold any particularly sacred or worthy of sharing. Hell, I don't even begin to explain them to myself. LOL Mostly I've been able to do a process of elimination.......

I do, however, have like a zillion questions. That.......yes that I do have.

Well, then I'm not sure how else to explain scientists like Ken Miller (an evolutionary biologist and star witness for science in the Kitzmiller v, Dover trial, who also happens to be a devout Catholic), and Francis Crick (who has a Nobel prize for his work on the structure of DNA, yet thinks a frozen waterfall he found while hiking was evidence of his god). I'd claim that they simply aren't applying the same level of skepticism and rational to their spiritual lives as to their professional ones. If one uses bad logic to rationalize their beliefs (because rationalization is easier than introspection and change), then a more intelligent person could be even better at using bad logic and reasoning to rationalize the beliefs they already have instead of changing them. I imagine that smarter and more creative people have an easier time getting around their cognitive dissonance through rationalization (even if it is bad), because it's still easier than the alternative. It is simply the path of least resistance.

This all makes sense to me, but your mileage may vary. Please feel free to let me know if I failed to adequately explain my reasoning, or if you had any other questions. Thumbsup

Actually, that wasn't Francis Crick, but Francis Collins, and I don't believe Collins was a winner of the Nobel, just that he was the head of the Human Genome Project.
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21-11-2013, 02:45 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 02:37 PM)Boysurroundedbymoms Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 01:38 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I'm sorry, it was not my intention to insinuate that unexplained powerful experience and education are mutually exclusive. However I don't think that it's mere coincidence that things like substantial miracles (such as the raising of the dead) only ever claim to have occurred in the most backwater and uneducated of places.



Well, then I'm not sure how else to explain scientists like Ken Miller (an evolutionary biologist and star witness for science in the Kitzmiller v, Dover trial, who also happens to be a devout Catholic), and Francis Crick (who has a Nobel prize for his work on the structure of DNA, yet thinks a frozen waterfall he found while hiking was evidence of his god). I'd claim that they simply aren't applying the same level of skepticism and rational to their spiritual lives as to their professional ones. If one uses bad logic to rationalize their beliefs (because rationalization is easier than introspection and change), then a more intelligent person could be even better at using bad logic and reasoning to rationalize the beliefs they already have instead of changing them. I imagine that smarter and more creative people have an easier time getting around their cognitive dissonance through rationalization (even if it is bad), because it's still easier than the alternative. It is simply the path of least resistance.

This all makes sense to me, but your mileage may vary. Please feel free to let me know if I failed to adequately explain my reasoning, or if you had any other questions. Thumbsup

Actually, that wasn't Francis Crick, but Francis Collins, and I don't believe Collins was a winner of the Nobel, just that he was the head of the Human Genome Project.

I was about to say it was Francis Collins... but yeah... forgot to type it.

He's also the founder of BioLogos.

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21-11-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
Also don't forget Alister McGrath and Robert Bakker.

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21-11-2013, 02:59 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 01:38 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 01:06 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You might want to tidy up that second paragraph just a touch. I hold two degrees - one of which is in Logic & Argumentation and I graduated college when I was 19.....so...... just because someone has had a magical experience (or 13) that they cannot explain does not necessarily mean they've had a life void of education. No. I've been exposed to the same amount of possible education as most anyone else and if nothing else - I clearly have the internet same as you. LOL I'm also 54 years old and not new to this life nor new to exposure. My life has been spent searching and tracking clues......finding NO particular answers. (And I'm not mad about that either lol)

I'm sorry, it was not my intention to insinuate that unexplained powerful experience and education are mutually exclusive. However I don't think that it's mere coincidence that things like substantial miracles (such as the raising of the dead) only ever claim to have occurred in the most backwater and uneducated of places.


(21-11-2013 01:06 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  And I disagree that amount of smarts allows a person to rationalize their *beliefs*. Beliefs cannot be rationalized. Those two things do not jive. I wouldn't even begin to try to explain my *beliefs* - not sure I hold any particularly sacred or worthy of sharing. Hell, I don't even begin to explain them to myself. LOL Mostly I've been able to do a process of elimination.......

I do, however, have like a zillion questions. That.......yes that I do have.

Well, then I'm not sure how else to explain scientists like Ken Miller (an evolutionary biologist and star witness for science in the Kitzmiller v, Dover trial, who also happens to be a devout Catholic), and Francis Crick (who has a Nobel prize for his work on the structure of DNA, yet thinks a frozen waterfall he found while hiking was evidence of his god). I'd claim that they simply aren't applying the same level of skepticism and rational to their spiritual lives as to their professional ones. If one uses bad logic to rationalize their beliefs (because rationalization is easier than introspection and change), then a more intelligent person could be even better at using bad logic and reasoning to rationalize the beliefs they already have instead of changing them. I imagine that smarter and more creative people have an easier time getting around their cognitive dissonance through rationalization (even if it is bad), because it's still easier than the alternative. It is simply the path of least resistance.

This all makes sense to me, but your mileage may vary. Please feel free to let me know if I failed to adequately explain my reasoning, or if you had any other questions. Thumbsup

EK:

Frozen waterfall = AN evidence.

Just as you'd protest you have multiple reasons to disbelieve, Christians always say they have multiple reasons to believe.

KC has a piece of metaphysical something he said works for him. It sounds like one (1) piece of evidence. Yet he's studied the Bible for a long time, and constantly sees evidence where the Bible tells the truths of the human condition and human behavior. The Bible and his many studies run parallel with rather than contradict his numinous experience.
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21-11-2013, 03:05 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 02:50 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Also don't forget Alister McGrath and Robert Bakker.

Yep, Robert T. Bakker is a fun one. He has PhD's from Harvard and Yale, and he's a Pentecostal preacher; needless to say he doesn't interpret the story of Genesis literally.

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21-11-2013, 03:14 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 02:59 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  EK:

Frozen waterfall = AN evidence.

Just as you'd protest you have multiple reasons to disbelieve, Christians always say they have multiple reasons to believe.

KC has a piece of metaphysical something he said works for him. It sounds like one (1) piece of evidence. Yet he's studied the Bible for a long time, and constantly sees evidence where the Bible tells the truths of the human condition and human behavior. The Bible and his many studies run parallel with rather than contradict his numinous experience.

For the love of crap...

Not all evidence is created equally. Personal subjective anecdotes are not at all compelling, and are not even considered 'evidence' by the far laxer requirements of law (let alone science). Do you want to know what happens when a court recognizes personal, unverifiable, subjective, anecdotal evidence? They start sentencing people for witchcraft... Dodgy

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21-11-2013, 03:25 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 03:14 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Not all evidence is created equally. Personal subjective anecdotes are not at all compelling, and are not even considered 'evidence' by the far laxer requirements of law (let alone science). Do you want to know what happens when a court recognizes personal, unverifiable, subjective, anecdotal evidence? They start sentencing people for witchcraft... Dodgy

While I agree with this in a sense, I also disagree.

All evidence isn't equal in regards to to trying objectively and empirically; however, all evidence is equal in regards to subjective and personal experiences.

If one is trying to prove something to themselves, all evidences have to be considered and even weighted in regards to the person's personal feelings and experiences with the said evidences.

Truth is in the eye of the beholder.

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21-11-2013, 03:27 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 03:05 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 02:50 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Also don't forget Alister McGrath and Robert Bakker.

Yep, Robert T. Bakker is a fun one. He has PhD's from Harvard and Yale, and he's a Pentecostal preacher; needless to say he doesn't interpret the story of Genesis literally.

Neither does Collins... since he's a bigwig in the EC world.

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21-11-2013, 03:28 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 01:38 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 01:06 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You might want to tidy up that second paragraph just a touch. I hold two degrees - one of which is in Logic & Argumentation and I graduated college when I was 19.....so...... just because someone has had a magical experience (or 13) that they cannot explain does not necessarily mean they've had a life void of education. No. I've been exposed to the same amount of possible education as most anyone else and if nothing else - I clearly have the internet same as you. LOL I'm also 54 years old and not new to this life nor new to exposure. My life has been spent searching and tracking clues......finding NO particular answers. (And I'm not mad about that either lol)

I'm sorry, it was not my intention to insinuate that unexplained powerful experience and education are mutually exclusive. However I don't think that it's mere coincidence that things like substantial miracles (such as the raising of the dead) only ever claim to have occurred in the most backwater and uneducated of places.


(21-11-2013 01:06 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  And I disagree that amount of smarts allows a person to rationalize their *beliefs*. Beliefs cannot be rationalized. Those two things do not jive. I wouldn't even begin to try to explain my *beliefs* - not sure I hold any particularly sacred or worthy of sharing. Hell, I don't even begin to explain them to myself. LOL Mostly I've been able to do a process of elimination.......

I do, however, have like a zillion questions. That.......yes that I do have.

Well, then I'm not sure how else to explain scientists like Ken Miller (an evolutionary biologist and star witness for science in the Kitzmiller v, Dover trial, who also happens to be a devout Catholic), and Francis Collins (who was head of the Human Genome Project, yet thinks a frozen waterfall he found while hiking was evidence of his god). I'd claim that they simply aren't applying the same level of skepticism and rational to their spiritual lives as to their professional ones. If one uses bad logic to rationalize their beliefs (because rationalization is easier than introspection and change), then a more intelligent person could be even better at using bad logic and reasoning to rationalize the beliefs they already have instead of changing them. I imagine that smarter and more creative people have an easier time getting around their cognitive dissonance through rationalization (even if it is bad), because it's still easier than the alternative. It is simply the path of least resistance.

This all makes sense to me, but your mileage may vary. Please feel free to let me know if I failed to adequately explain my reasoning, or if you had any other questions. Thumbsup

:EDIT: Fixed my Collins/Crick mix up. How embarrassing... Unsure


I hit *like* for your response. If I could figure out how to REP this post for you - I'd do so. Most awesome response for my comments. Thank you.
And I have no answer as to *devout* scientists either. If I had an answer to that - we'd ALL be in a better space than the chasm which lays between non-believers & believers.
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