Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
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21-11-2013, 03:31 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 02:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 01:06 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You might want to tidy up that second paragraph just a touch. I hold two degrees - one of which is in Logic & Argumentation and I graduated college when I was 19.....so...... just because someone has had a magical experience (or 13) that they cannot explain does not necessarily mean they've had a life void of education. No. I've been exposed to the same amount of possible education as most anyone else and if nothing else - I clearly have the internet same as you. LOL I'm also 54 years old and not new to this life nor new to exposure. My life has been spent searching and tracking clues......finding NO particular answers. (And I'm not mad about that either lol)

And I disagree that amount of smarts allows a person to rationalize their *beliefs*. Beliefs cannot be rationalized. Those two things do not jive. I wouldn't even begin to try to explain my *beliefs* - not sure I hold any particularly sacred or worthy of sharing. Hell, I don't even begin to explain them to myself. LOL Mostly I've been able to do a process of elimination.......

I do, however, have like a zillion questions. That.......yes that I do have.

You do understand that unexplained means unexplained, not supernatural. Drinking Beverage

Got it. And I envy your clarity on that one. I remain a bit muddy on such things myself. Wish I did not. But I do. You can see me as crazy (or stupid) due to my lack of clarity - I'm perfectly alright with that being the case. Drinking Beverage

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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21-11-2013, 03:43 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 03:25 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  While I agree with this in a sense, I also disagree.

All evidence isn't equal in regards to to trying objectively and empirically; however, all evidence is equal in regards to subjective and personal experiences.

If one is trying to prove something to themselves, all evidences have to be considered and even weighted in regards to the person's personal feelings and experiences with the said evidences.

Truth is in the eye of the beholder.

Therein lies the problem. If your aim is to convince me of your personal subjective truth, you're going to need better than personal subjective evidence. You get this KC, which when combined with your Calvinism, leads you not bothering with trying to convince others of your personal truth. Needless to say, I think it's a key factor in why you're arguably the most well liked and respected theist on the forums.

I can't say however that I find your personal truth at all convincing. But we're both ecumenical enough to realize this and so we don't beat each other up over it. You find it convincing, I simply can not; and we both understand why we each hold the position we do. You know what? I can live with that. Cool

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21-11-2013, 03:45 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 03:31 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 02:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  You do understand that unexplained means unexplained, not supernatural. Drinking Beverage

Got it. And I envy your clarity on that one. I remain a bit muddy on such things myself. Wish I did not. But I do. You can see me as crazy (or stupid) due to my lack of clarity - I'm perfectly alright with that being the case. Drinking Beverage

I would personally go with 'eccentric', it's like the best of both worlds! Thumbsup

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21-11-2013, 03:45 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 03:43 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 03:25 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  While I agree with this in a sense, I also disagree.

All evidence isn't equal in regards to to trying objectively and empirically; however, all evidence is equal in regards to subjective and personal experiences.

If one is trying to prove something to themselves, all evidences have to be considered and even weighted in regards to the person's personal feelings and experiences with the said evidences.

Truth is in the eye of the beholder.

Therein lies the problem. If your aim is to convince me of your personal subjective truth, you're going to need better than personal subjective evidence. You get this KC, which when combined with your Calvinism, leads you not bothering with trying to convince others of your personal truth. Needless to say, I think it's a key factor in why you're arguably the most well liked and respected theist on the forums.

I can't say however that I find your personal truth at all convincing. But we're both ecumenical enough to realize this and so we don't beat each other up over it. You find it convincing, I simply can not; and we both understand why we each hold the position we do. You know what? I can live with that. Cool

Nice summary. Would read again. A+++++++++++++++

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21-11-2013, 03:47 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 03:14 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 02:59 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  EK:

Frozen waterfall = AN evidence.

Just as you'd protest you have multiple reasons to disbelieve, Christians always say they have multiple reasons to believe.

KC has a piece of metaphysical something he said works for him. It sounds like one (1) piece of evidence. Yet he's studied the Bible for a long time, and constantly sees evidence where the Bible tells the truths of the human condition and human behavior. The Bible and his many studies run parallel with rather than contradict his numinous experience.

For the love of crap...

Not all evidence is created equally. Personal subjective anecdotes are not at all compelling, and are not even considered 'evidence' by the far laxer requirements of law (let alone science). Do you want to know what happens when a court recognizes personal, unverifiable, subjective, anecdotal evidence? They start sentencing people for witchcraft... Dodgy

Why do you quote jurisprudence regarding metaphysics? Personal subjective anecdotes are certainly not evidence if we're putting God on trial. But we're not, for He's committed no crime, and you can't seem to find Him to subpoena Him to appear!

What you're really doing here is getting down on KC (not me, for I will not give you my proof until you prove you exist Big Grin) for claiming a numinous experience. Please decide whether you are questioning the validity of his personal experience or saying its impossible for him to have such an experience and for him to believe it and still be genuine.

In other words, there are millions of God witnesses who claim they've had discreet experiences. And you haven't had one so they must all be wrong since they don't have empirical evidence like clay tablets written in god's hand or videos of the sea parting, is that correct?

I'm not accusing you of being arrogant, but how is it not disrespectful to accuse teeming millions of people of being delusional about confirmatory experiences you say they never had? How are you now calling millions of people pathological liars, please?

Thanks.
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21-11-2013, 03:50 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
I still think KC's religious ideas are batshit crazy, but I like and respect all the rest of him. And there is a lot more to a person than religion or no religion.

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21-11-2013, 03:51 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 03:45 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 03:31 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Got it. And I envy your clarity on that one. I remain a bit muddy on such things myself. Wish I did not. But I do. You can see me as crazy (or stupid) due to my lack of clarity - I'm perfectly alright with that being the case. Drinking Beverage

I would personally go with 'eccentric', it's like the best of both worlds! Thumbsup

Oh I like that so much better. Thanks for the help!Thumbsup

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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21-11-2013, 03:52 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 03:28 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  I hit *like* for your response. If I could figure out how to REP this post for you - I'd do so. Most awesome response for my comments. Thank you.
And I have no answer as to *devout* scientists either. If I had an answer to that - we'd ALL be in a better space than the chasm which lays between non-believers & believers.
My theory is simple: Comes down to what makes you feel all good and squishy inside. Angel

Thank you Sabrina, you are too kind.

While individual posts can be liked (and un-liked if you change your mind or make a mistake), Reputation is more of a forum wide measurement. Getting to it is real easy. At the top of each post is a lot of the poster's forum stats, among them Reputation. Simply clicking on that number will take you directly to their Reputation page, where you can see the entire list of positive and negative 'reps' given over their entire forum career. In the top right corner of the window is a button labeled 'Rate User', this brings up a small pop-up window where you can rate the user (+/-1 to start) and leave a short message too; and this raises or lowers their forum Reputation accordingly.

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21-11-2013, 03:55 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 01:38 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I imagine that smarter and more creative people have an easier time getting around their cognitive dissonance through rationalization (even if it is bad), because it's still easier than the alternative. It is simply the path of least resistance.

I kind of think along this line but more like... one can be rational and logical within their faith as long as they are rational and logical to that faith.

Faith seems to me something quite outside the self. It seems that in order to accept it as part of one's self, one must immerse one's self in it, in whatever way possible. To do this, maybe it's easier for some to just leave reason and logic behind at some point... and maybe that's the point where cognitive dissonance takes over for some who simply can not do without reason and logic. Like a few scientists who profess faith. One can be reasonable and logical about their faith while in it, as well as reasonable and logical without it and they just don't mix the two.

I've recently done a bit of reading about mathematician John Nash who, for 30 years was immersed in the depths of his mind, trapped by schizophrenia. He continues to struggle with irrational thoughts but he has largely taken charge of his mind with logic and reason. To me, his insight and story is very much a testimony to logic and reason being a useful tool for the rational mind. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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21-11-2013, 03:57 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(21-11-2013 03:47 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 03:14 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  For the love of crap...

Not all evidence is created equally. Personal subjective anecdotes are not at all compelling, and are not even considered 'evidence' by the far laxer requirements of law (let alone science). Do you want to know what happens when a court recognizes personal, unverifiable, subjective, anecdotal evidence? They start sentencing people for witchcraft... Dodgy

Why do you quote jurisprudence regarding metaphysics? Personal subjective anecdotes are certainly not evidence if we're putting God on trial. But we're not, for He's committed no crime, and you can't seem to find Him to subpoena Him to appear!

What you're really doing here is getting down on KC (not me, for I will not give you my proof until you prove you exist Big Grin) for claiming a numinous experience. Please decide whether you are questioning the validity of his personal experience or saying its impossible for him to have such an experience and for him to believe it and still be genuine.

In other words, there are millions of God witnesses who claim they've had discreet experiences. And you haven't had one so they must all be wrong since they don't have empirical evidence like clay tablets written in god's hand or videos of the sea parting, is that correct?

I'm not accusing you of being arrogant, but how is it not disrespectful to accuse teeming millions of people of being delusional about confirmatory experiences you say they never had? How are you now calling millions of people pathological liars, please?

Thanks.

Dodgy

I will get back to this, but I need to get some sleep before work.

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