Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
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18-11-2013, 01:14 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(15-11-2013 02:04 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  All things God created are of equal importance to Him... every bit of minutia in everything; however, there are more important factors that contribute to His plan.

His plan intricately involves humanity; therefore, in order for His plan to come to fruition, those factors are the more important ones.

That being said, the world He created is bound by laws and causes and effects, so this is why the minutia of everything is important. Did He control the action of you squishing that cricket earlier?

Yes. But why?

Because of the binding of the laws of physics and because of the creation of psychology of humans. Our disregard for the life of the cricket and our perceived superiority over the cricket is caused by the sin that God created for humanity which affects our psychology; therefore, a cause and an effect - stepping on the cricket.

Likewise, the binding to the laws of physics that God created for our world results in the cricket being smashed.

God actively controls all of this because this is how He wanted the world to be, and He fulfills the rules that He set up.

There is nothing too big or too small that He's not controlling - if so, then He's not omnipotent.

I hope this was clear. I haven't been theological in awhile, so some of it may seem muddled.

You just made this up.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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18-11-2013, 01:16 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(15-11-2013 02:57 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  It was a generality. -_-

It was just an example. I wasn't saying that the specific example was applicable to everyone or anyone. It was just an illustration tool...


In other words, you confuse "being theological" with "making shit up".

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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18-11-2013, 01:22 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(18-11-2013 12:43 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I have no real desire to debate Calvinism and Arminianism, but election is much more consistent throughout the entirety of the Bible. Free will or verses that seemingly promote free will can easily be explained in context or through translation.

I have not met an Arminian that can go toe-to-toe with me on the subject; not that I'm awesome at debating, it's just easy to prove election with the Bible as it bluntly states it throughout.

Arminianism diminishes God's omnipotence and places humanity on a higher, more powerful plane that God; moreover, Arminianism has spawned some of the most treacherous and dishonest views of the Bible. Namely pre-trib eschatology and Young Earth Creationism.

Wait, what????? You guys can't even get your fairy tales straight amongst yourselves????? WTF???

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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18-11-2013, 01:33 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(18-11-2013 12:49 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Wait, what????? You guys can't even get your fairy tales straight amongst yourselves????? WTF???

Ha! Tongue
TMock, I guess this might be your first encounter with a few of our onboard theists all in one place ... including our forum administrator, Kingsy.

Yea, christees have an inability to get it together on many things, not unlike atheists - there is quite a variety of loon out amongst the godly, to say the least. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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18-11-2013, 02:07 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
Quite the conundrum!

PJ says we can be saved. KC says our fates are predetermined. I'd say that KC's angle is more in-line with the description of the Christian god. After all, if your salvation is known (and therefore determined) before you're born, free-will becomes meaningless.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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18-11-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(18-11-2013 02:07 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Quite the conundrum!

PJ says we can be saved. KC says our fates are predetermined. I'd say that KC's angle is more in-line with the description of the Christian god. After all, if your salvation is known (and therefore determined) before you're born, free-will becomes meaningless.

You can be Lutheran, like the way I was raised, and believe both! Double predestination! The idea is that you get to heaven because you chose God and God chose you. So far as I can tell, this is basically to pay some amount of lip service to the idea that an omniscient god would invalidate free will, then it back paddles and says we have free will and claims that it didn't just back peddle and that there's no contradiction.

It always made me wonder: if we both have to choose, what happens if I choose God, but God doesn't choose me? If the answer is God always chooses us, then it seems like a stupid qualifier to add, since it isn't a deciding factor, or anything.
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18-11-2013, 02:49 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(18-11-2013 02:31 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  You can be Lutheran, like the way I was raised, and believe both! Double predestination! The idea is that you get to heaven because you chose God and God chose you. So far as I can tell, this is basically to pay some amount of lip service to the idea that an omniscient god would invalidate free will, then it back paddles and says we have free will and claims that it didn't just back peddle and that there's no contradiction.

It always made me wonder: if we both have to choose, what happens if I choose God, but God doesn't choose me? If the answer is God always chooses us, then it seems like a stupid qualifier to add, since it isn't a deciding factor, or anything.

Huh. I was also raised Lutheran and we never spoke of predestination. It was stressed that you had to ask for forgiveness. God did, apparently, always grant it, so maybe they were kinda teaching the same thing. I really liked my Lutheran pastor. He was a great guy and never pushed the bible down your throat.

The small mid-western town where I grew up had a strong Catholic presence. They had, hands down, the coolest and spookiest church on the block.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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18-11-2013, 03:06 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
That synergism crap doesn't make a lick of sense.

Look, I know y'all think I'm crazy, but at least my brand of crazy is rooted with logic and rationale.

You can't choose God and have Him choose you as well. That's a conundrum and paradoxical. He either chose you or He didn't.

If there is even a small bit of free will... I mean if your choice is even .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000​00000000000000000000000000000000001% of the equation it still makes God impotent ie not omnipotent.

If you have a choice, God is subjecting Himself to your whims; therefore, He isn't sovereign because your free will is sovereign over Him aka He's a craptastic, weakling of a god.

Arminianism and Calvinism cannot coexist in a single belief.

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18-11-2013, 03:15 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
(18-11-2013 03:06 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  That synergism crap doesn't make a lick of sense.

True.

Quote:Look, I know y'all think I'm crazy, but at least my brand of crazy is rooted with logic and rationale.

But only if one takes the Bible seriously, as containing metaphysical truth.

Quote:You can't choose God and have Him choose you as well. That's a conundrum and paradoxical. He either chose you or He didn't.

If there is even a small bit of free will... I mean if your choice is even .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000​00000000000000000000000000000000001% of the equation it still makes God impotent ie not omnipotent.

Well, not impotent - just not omnipotent.

Quote:If you have a choice, God is subjecting Himself to your whims; therefore, He isn't sovereign because your free will is sovereign over Him aka He's a craptastic, weakling of a god.

That seems to be a defensive overreaction.

Quote:Arminianism and Calvinism cannot coexist in a single belief.

No, but some sort of two-way street could. If one believed this crap.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-11-2013, 03:25 PM
RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?
Somehow I've always believed that there is life on other planets. Then I wondered if Jesus had to die for their sins too.

Now I am not so sure that God is nearly as focused on this planet as we are.
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