Donald Trump Time Magazine Person Of The Year
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07-12-2016, 05:28 PM
RE: Donald Trump Time Magazine Person Of The Year
(07-12-2016 05:04 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Let's not forget that his "saving" of jobs at Carrier in Indiana only resulted in way more tax breaks for the company (which hurts the taxpayer) and actually fewer jobs because Carrier is only going to automate things. Their CEO just said so on Mad Money. Trump saved no jobs and is costing Indiana tax dollars. Pence at least had their tax breaks yanked when they said they were going to move. The Donald then riggs it so they get more tax breaks and still cut most of the jobs. How is this making America great?
Last I heard, Carrier is getting $7 million in tax breaks and according to this article from Fortune, the 1,000 jobs that are staying in the U.S. thanks to this deal have an average hourly salary of $30.91. That's an annual salary of about $62,000. The IRS says that (single) people with a taxable income of $37,651-$91,150 have to pay $5,183.75 plus 25% of the amount over $37,650 in federal income tax. In this case, it would be $5,183.75 plus $6,212.5 for a total of $11,396.25 in taxes per employee. With one thousand employees, that'd add up to more than $11 million in taxes and that's not even counting all the other forms of taxes that aren't accounted for by this calculation. That's significantly more than the $7 million in tax breaks that Carrier is getting.

Care to explain how this deal is bad for the tax payers in light of these facts? Consider

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07-12-2016, 05:38 PM
RE: Donald Trump Time Magazine Person Of The Year
(07-12-2016 05:28 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(07-12-2016 05:04 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Let's not forget that his "saving" of jobs at Carrier in Indiana only resulted in way more tax breaks for the company (which hurts the taxpayer) and actually fewer jobs because Carrier is only going to automate things. Their CEO just said so on Mad Money. Trump saved no jobs and is costing Indiana tax dollars. Pence at least had their tax breaks yanked when they said they were going to move. The Donald then riggs it so they get more tax breaks and still cut most of the jobs. How is this making America great?
Last I heard, Carrier is getting $7 million in tax breaks and according to this article from Fortune, the 1,000 jobs that are staying in the U.S. thanks to this deal have an average hourly salary of $30.91. That's an annual salary of about $62,000. The IRS says that (single) people with a taxable income of $37,651-$91,150 have to pay $5,183.75 plus 25% of the amount over $37,650 in federal income tax. In this case, it would be $5,183.75 plus $6,212.5 for a total of $11,396.25 in taxes per employee. With one thousand employees, that'd add up to more than $11 million in taxes and that's not even counting all the other forms of taxes that aren't accounted for by this calculation. That's significantly more than the $7 million in tax breaks that Carrier is getting.

Care to explain how this deal is bad for the tax payers in light of these facts? Consider

You have to look at the bigger picture. (1) Those 1000 people already have their jobs, and are already paying those taxes, so that's not going to change. (2) 1000 or so other people are still going to lose their jobs, so any taxes that they would have paid are going away. (3) The company will be paying less tax.

Overall, that is a big shortfall compared to the present situation. In addition to that, (4) Those 1000 jobs are being "saved" for now. Trends being what they are, the odds are that those will go away anyway within a few years. This is a band-aid at best.
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07-12-2016, 05:39 PM
RE: Donald Trump Time Magazine Person Of The Year
(07-12-2016 05:28 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(07-12-2016 05:04 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Let's not forget that his "saving" of jobs at Carrier in Indiana only resulted in way more tax breaks for the company (which hurts the taxpayer) and actually fewer jobs because Carrier is only going to automate things. Their CEO just said so on Mad Money. Trump saved no jobs and is costing Indiana tax dollars. Pence at least had their tax breaks yanked when they said they were going to move. The Donald then riggs it so they get more tax breaks and still cut most of the jobs. How is this making America great?
Last I heard, Carrier is getting $7 million in tax breaks and according to this article from Fortune, the 1,000 jobs that are staying in the U.S. thanks to this deal have an average hourly salary of $30.91. That's an annual salary of about $62,000. The IRS says that (single) people with a taxable income of $37,651-$91,150 have to pay $5,183.75 plus 25% of the amount over $37,650 in federal income tax. In this case, it would be $5,183.75 plus $6,212.5 for a total of $11,396.25 in taxes per employee. With one thousand employees, that'd add up to more than $11 million in taxes and that's not even counting all the other forms of taxes that aren't accounted for by this calculation. That's significantly more than the $7 million in tax breaks that Carrier is getting.

Care to explain how this deal is bad for the tax payers in light of these facts? Consider

Explain to me why carrier would make that deal.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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07-12-2016, 06:11 PM (This post was last modified: 07-12-2016 07:16 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Donald Trump Time Magazine Person Of The Year
(07-12-2016 05:28 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(07-12-2016 05:04 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Let's not forget that his "saving" of jobs at Carrier in Indiana only resulted in way more tax breaks for the company (which hurts the taxpayer) and actually fewer jobs because Carrier is only going to automate things. Their CEO just said so on Mad Money. Trump saved no jobs and is costing Indiana tax dollars. Pence at least had their tax breaks yanked when they said they were going to move. The Donald then riggs it so they get more tax breaks and still cut most of the jobs. How is this making America great?
Last I heard, Carrier is getting $7 million in tax breaks and according to this article from Fortune, the 1,000 jobs that are staying in the U.S. thanks to this deal have an average hourly salary of $30.91. That's an annual salary of about $62,000. The IRS says that (single) people with a taxable income of $37,651-$91,150 have to pay $5,183.75 plus 25% of the amount over $37,650 in federal income tax. In this case, it would be $5,183.75 plus $6,212.5 for a total of $11,396.25 in taxes per employee. With one thousand employees, that'd add up to more than $11 million in taxes and that's not even counting all the other forms of taxes that aren't accounted for by this calculation. That's significantly more than the $7 million in tax breaks that Carrier is getting.

Care to explain how this deal is bad for the tax payers in light of these facts? Consider

The fact is your $62,000 salary is not equal to taxable income. It fails to take into account any tax deductions, exemptions, deferrals or credits. Taxes are paid on the AGI, not salary.

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07-12-2016, 06:26 PM
RE: Donald Trump Time Magazine Person Of The Year
The union boss of Carrier was just on TV - I didn't catch all the numbers but apparently Trump lied. 550 people showed up thinking they would still have jobs but - no, their jobs are going to Mexico. Probably there will be news with the actual numbers soon....

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07-12-2016, 06:43 PM
RE: Donald Trump Time Magazine Person Of The Year
(07-12-2016 05:28 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(07-12-2016 05:04 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Let's not forget that his "saving" of jobs at Carrier in Indiana only resulted in way more tax breaks for the company (which hurts the taxpayer) and actually fewer jobs because Carrier is only going to automate things. Their CEO just said so on Mad Money. Trump saved no jobs and is costing Indiana tax dollars. Pence at least had their tax breaks yanked when they said they were going to move. The Donald then riggs it so they get more tax breaks and still cut most of the jobs. How is this making America great?
Last I heard, Carrier is getting $7 million in tax breaks and according to this article from Fortune, the 1,000 jobs that are staying in the U.S. thanks to this deal have an average hourly salary of $30.91. That's an annual salary of about $62,000. The IRS says that (single) people with a taxable income of $37,651-$91,150 have to pay $5,183.75 plus 25% of the amount over $37,650 in federal income tax. In this case, it would be $5,183.75 plus $6,212.5 for a total of $11,396.25 in taxes per employee. With one thousand employees, that'd add up to more than $11 million in taxes and that's not even counting all the other forms of taxes that aren't accounted for by this calculation. That's significantly more than the $7 million in tax breaks that Carrier is getting.

Care to explain how this deal is bad for the tax payers in light of these facts? Consider

Your facts are musleading. You are ignoring the tax contribution of 2000 people who will now be cut in half and will likely be on some government program for at least a while. Also, the tax incentives they had before were about 1.5 million and there were about 2000 employees working. Pence had it taken back after the move was anounced. I don't exactly know how he did that but it was on the local news.

Greg Hays of United Technologies (Carrier's parent company) said this on Mad Money (emphasis mine):

Quote:GREG HAYES: Right. Well, and again, if you think about what we talked about last week, we're going to make a $16 million investment in that factory in Indianapolis to automate to drive the cost down so that we can continue to be competitive. Now is it as cheap as moving to Mexico with lower cost of labor? No. But we will make that plant competitive just because we'll make the capital investments there.

JIM CRAMER: Right.

GREG HAYES: But what that ultimately means is there will be fewer jobs.

In that same interview, he also said this:

Quote:I also know that about 10% of our revenue comes from the US government.

To address the other question on why they would take that deal, remember how Trump said that companies who offshore US jobs lose government business? (Whether he actually would follow up with it is unknown) Ponder why UTC would take that deal if they remembered this or if he even reminded them that 10% of their revenue comes from government contracts. That 10% could easily make up what they would save by moving to Mexico. This is also ignoring the political capital UTC gains by keeping operations in the US. If you think this is not important, you are sorely mistaken.

You are also ignoring the people who actually are losing their jobs after the automation investment is complete, eating into that $11 million. They will not need all of these people once the robots are up and running.

With this, they get way more tax breaks, Over 1000 people will be unemployed which means their tax contribution is less/none, of the 1000 remaining workers, eventually more will lose their jobs as the factory becomes more automated and then contribute less to the tax pool.

Now I know that these guys will not be perpetually unemployed, but it does seem that Trump is being given way more credit than what he deserves. I really feel bad for the employees.

In case you are thinking I am being melodramatic about this, I understand that at least some jobs are being saved and that is a positive thing. But also, as an Indiana taxpayer, it also bothers me that this happened because the more the government does this kind of thing then acts like it is the dawn of a new era the more inteusive they become.

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07-12-2016, 06:48 PM (This post was last modified: 07-12-2016 07:06 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Donald Trump Time Magazine Person Of The Year
(07-12-2016 06:26 PM)Dom Wrote:  The union boss of Carrier was just on TV - I didn't catch all the numbers but apparently Trump lied. 550 people showed up thinking they would still have jobs but - no, their jobs are going to Mexico. Probably there will be news with the actual numbers soon....

800 jobs (730 factory, 70 salaried, the 1100 number included 350 R&D positions which were never slated to move in the first place) in Indianapolis saved (until next year when robots replace them), 553 still going to lovely Monterrey (Mexico not Cali), all 700 jobs in Carrier Huntington, IN plant still gone, parent company announced upcoming layoffs. Sounds like great news for Carrier employees. Who could ask for a better deal?

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07-12-2016, 07:12 PM
RE: Donald Trump Time Magazine Person Of The Year
(07-12-2016 06:43 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  In case you are thinking I am being melodramatic about this, I understand that at least some jobs are being saved and that is a positive thing. But also, as an Indiana taxpayer, it also bothers me that this happened because the more the government does this kind of thing then acts like it is the dawn of a new era the more inteusive they become.

Doesn't sound much like free market capitalism does it. More like some sorta welfare program for people who are going to lose their jobs to automation anyway.

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07-12-2016, 07:51 PM
Donald Trump Time Magazine Person Of The Year
One year the baby boomer generation one it... like the actual just collective of Americans under 25 in 1966

But it's an ways given to American Presidents at some point of their career. It's a more legitimate game to play who didn't get it in the time line of Time existing.

Ford and Hoover didn't win it ever. That's about it as us presidents go.

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07-12-2016, 08:07 PM
RE: Donald Trump Time Magazine Person Of The Year
(07-12-2016 04:53 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(07-12-2016 08:58 AM)yakherder Wrote:  To be fair, he was person of the year back when he was known for his something other than genocide. If he'd died that year he probably would have gone down in history as one of Germany's greatest leaders.

So, in following with the "Trump is Hitler" bandwagon, to best capitalize on the next few years we need to be sure and get rid of him immediately after he finishes making America great again.

Really?

Germany was a mess. He turned its economy around, then went all genocidal. Hitler is a textbook example of why we have term limits.

That's not to say I believe Trump will follow in his footsteps in either of those aspects. Just playing the "let's pretend Trump is Hitler" game.

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