Downfall of Divine Command Theory: The Euthyphro Dilemma
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30-06-2014, 02:06 PM
Downfall of Divine Command Theory: The Euthyphro Dilemma
So, for all you that don't about this dilemma, it is basically this:

1.) Is something good because God commanded it
2.) or is does God command it because IT is good?

If it is good because God commanded it then morality is arbitrary and they are in the same hole as everyone else. If he commanded it because IT is good then morality is separate from God.

The response to this is a "3rd" dilemma. It is basically "God commands good things because he is the good (good is his nature). But then many questions arise due to this response.

1a.) Is something good because it is Gods nature
1b.) or is it Gods nature because it is good?

Same dilemma, different wording.

Also, the other problem that comes to mind is:

2a.) is if God is bound by his nature then he is not omnipotent
2b.) If God is not bound by his nature then morality is again, arbitrary.

“Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.

-Christopher Hitchens
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30-06-2014, 02:56 PM
RE: Downfall of Divine Command Theory: The Euthyphro Dilemma
As I understand most of what I see from theists, whatever issues from a god is moral by definition, be it a directive a worshipper must obey or action of its own, and cannot be compared to other directives, other actions or a worshipper's estimate of "goodness" in an attempt to gauge its morality. God dun it or said do it: it's moral, and stands by itself as moral, totally independent of anything before or after, however wildly in contradiction it might be IF compared.

So, no dilemma at all. Complete anarchy, of course, but no dilemma. It makes it impossible for any theist to point to any action taken either by their god or by anyone else and grant it any moral weight because to do so constitutes making comparisons. They do it anyway, but with no logical legitimacy.

The only legitimately "moral" course when your god IS what's moral is to do nothing until ordered to do something. Wait for instructions. To not wait risks acting out of compliance with whatever your god may want at that moment, which cannot be known unless told to you, by your god.

Most theists don't wait; they make assumptions, via comparisons, about what to do, or what they can get away with. They "go over god's head" doing that, acting on their own like that, but "going over someone's head" is what most of the world is to them anyway: "over their head".
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30-06-2014, 06:24 PM
RE: Downfall of Divine Command Theory: The Euthyphro Dilemma
The thiests I have run into fail to see the nuance. If God commands it it is good because God commanded it. In their mind this makes morality neither contradictory nor arbitrary.
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30-06-2014, 07:09 PM
RE: Downfall of Divine Command Theory: The Euthyphro Dilemma
(30-06-2014 02:06 PM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  So, for all you that don't about this dilemma, it is basically this:

1.) Is something good because God commanded it
2.) or is does God command it because IT is good?

If it is good because God commanded it then morality is arbitrary and they are in the same hole as everyone else. If he commanded it because IT is good then morality is separate from God.

The response to this is a "3rd" dilemma. It is basically "God commands good things because he is the good (good is his nature). But then many questions arise due to this response.

1a.) Is something good because it is Gods nature
1b.) or is it Gods nature because it is good?

Same dilemma, different wording.

Also, the other problem that comes to mind is:

2a.) is if God is bound by his nature then he is not omnipotent
2b.) If God is not bound by his nature then morality is again, arbitrary.

One of my favorites.
I think there's more there than meets the eye. If "god commands good things because he is good" the unspoken assumption is that Reality is (and HAS to be) greater than god, (as if there is a "good" at all, and the definition "means anything", then the "not-good", or *other than good* also always existed, as long as the "good" existed. So the good is always extant (concurrently) with god. But that means the "other" also always existed. He couldn't have created what necessarily always had to exist concurrently as his opposite, (or the Reality in which he is REQUIRED to exist). Cool

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-07-2014, 07:44 PM
RE: Downfall of Divine Command Theory: The Euthyphro Dilemma
what do you all say grounds moral values and duties?
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01-07-2014, 08:00 PM
RE: Downfall of Divine Command Theory: The Euthyphro Dilemma
Behaviors that humans have found promote survival of their groups, while optimizing a few other things.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-07-2014, 08:04 PM
RE: Downfall of Divine Command Theory: The Euthyphro Dilemma
(01-07-2014 08:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Behaviors that humans have found promote survival of their groups, while optimizing a few other things.

so an act is moral if it promotes the survival of a species and immoral if it hinders the survival of a species?
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01-07-2014, 08:21 PM
RE: Downfall of Divine Command Theory: The Euthyphro Dilemma
(01-07-2014 08:04 PM)δοῦλος Wrote:  
(01-07-2014 08:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Behaviors that humans have found promote survival of their groups, while optimizing a few other things.

so an act is moral if it promotes the survival of a species and immoral if it hinders the survival of a species?

Not exactly. Morality in general evolved that way. What is moral for an individual in a given situation is more complicated. Why don't you say where you think it comes from.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-07-2014, 08:30 PM
RE: Downfall of Divine Command Theory: The Euthyphro Dilemma
(01-07-2014 08:04 PM)δοῦλος Wrote:  so an act is moral if it promotes the survival of a species and immoral if it hinders the survival of a species?

I would say the above would make an act "practical" or "pragmatic," in a utilitarian sense, but would not necessarily make an act "moral" or "ethical."

If an area was severely overcrowded and was thus suffering from predictable complications that can arise from a situation like that, one "practical" means of preserving the species there would be to terminate a certain number or a certain percentage of that population there.

This could be practical and pragmatic. Would it be moral? I would say HELLZ NO.
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01-07-2014, 08:38 PM
RE: Downfall of Divine Command Theory: The Euthyphro Dilemma
(01-07-2014 08:21 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-07-2014 08:04 PM)δοῦλος Wrote:  so an act is moral if it promotes the survival of a species and immoral if it hinders the survival of a species?

Not exactly. Morality in general evolved that way. What is moral for an individual in a given situation is more complicated. Why don't you say where you think it comes from.

human opinions of course. where else?
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