Dr. Dino
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09-09-2010, 09:19 PM
RE: Dr. Dino
Quote:"Brian Fellow's Safari Planet". In the skit, Tracy Morgan plays a man with a 6th grade education with a TV show on animals. Experts come on the show to talk about things and the Tracy Morgan character can't understand what they are talking about and just yells "I'm Brian Fellows!" all the time

Just as a chucklesome remark, I have a friend that I hanged out with every weekend before I moved away that literally died laughing every time anyone even made mention of this skit, and repeated "I'm Brain Fellows!" himself. The funny part? Indeed, he's a creationist. Tongue

"It does feel like something to be wrong; it feels like being right." -Kathryn Schulz
I am 100% certain that I am wrong about something I am certain about right now. Because even if everything I stand for turns out to be completely true, I was still wrong about being wrong.
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09-09-2010, 10:39 PM
RE: Dr. Dino
(09-09-2010 09:04 PM)BnW Wrote:  
Quote:Having critics is always something of a blessing, albeit a mixed one - our critics force us to confront weaknesses and deficiencies in our arguments.

Preposterous. These wingnuts are not your critics and you do yourself a disservice by giving them that much credence. Legitimate critiques of scientific work is both expected and welcome because it forces us to question what we think we've learned. This is not a critique of science.

I am with BnW on this. These guys are trying to build a financial empire by selling any lies they can get away with. They pick on evolution and science because a lot of people are either ignorant or scared of these subjects, which makes them easy marks.(gangster slang for shmucks who are easy to cheat)
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10-09-2010, 02:54 AM
 
RE: Dr. Dino
(09-09-2010 09:04 PM)BnW Wrote:  
Quote:Having critics is always something of a blessing, albeit a mixed one - our critics force us to confront weaknesses and deficiencies in our arguments.

Preposterous. These wingnuts are not your critics and you do yourself a disservice by giving them that much credence. Legitimate critiques of scientific work is both expected and welcome because it forces us to question what we think we've learned. This is not a critique of science.
Preposterous? That seems rather insulting. You seem to talk of 'legitimate critiques of scientific work' as if science deals in absolutes and there's some well-defined boundary between what's legitimate and what's not. I too think these guys are way off-base in their critiques of evolution and I give their ideas little or no credence, but it's enlightening to me to see their point of view, and how they change when their notions are refuted. I don't feel threatened by them, so their criticisms of science are of interest to me. Would you deny them their right to freedom of expression simply because they're wrong?

(09-09-2010 09:04 PM)BnW Wrote:  
Quote:In a healthy, free society, sites like this are to be expected. I may disagree strongly with these folks, but I'll support their right to say what they believe!

Their right to say what they believe is not even in question. However, just because they exercise their right doesn't mean they are right.
And where did I say they WERE right?
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10-09-2010, 03:42 AM
 
RE: Dr. Dino
So i took the bait and clicked the link. I want the airplane.
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10-09-2010, 06:47 AM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2010 06:57 AM by BnW.)
RE: Dr. Dino
Quote:Preposterous? That seems rather insulting.

I wasn't going for insulting so perhaps that was a poor word choice on my part.

Quote:You seem to talk of 'legitimate critiques of scientific work' as if science deals in absolutes and there's some well-defined boundary between what's legitimate and what's not. I too think these guys are way off-base in their critiques of evolution and I give their ideas little or no credence, but it's enlightening to me to see their point of view, and how they change when their notions are refuted.

These people don't change when their notions are refuted and that is part of the problem with them. They are not interested in offering actual critiques. It's like arguing with someone who insists 2 + 2 = 5. You can show them 2 objects and then add 2 more objects and count the objects up in front of them and prove, beyond any doubt, that there are 4 objects. And then they look at you and say "you're wrong, 2 + 2 = 5", or "I'm Brian Fellows!". Either way, objective truth is not their goal. These people are similar to Holocaust deniers; there is an underlying agenda here and step 1 for them is to claim that observable facts or logical calculations are not what they appear. Once they win that argument, and they have in some circles, you start towards some very scary ground.

Which brings me to:

Quote:I don't feel threatened by them, so their criticisms of science are of interest to me.

You should feel threatened by them. You should feel very threatened by them. We've already seen when a sitting President feels that enough of these yahoos has helped put him into office. 8 years of an administration that took the basic position that creation science deserves equal time in our policy decisions as actual evidence based science. It impacted all types of decisions. In some states, it is impacting what is taught in schools. The long term impacts of these people having political power is frightening.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Quote:Would you deny them their right to freedom of expression simply because they're wrong?

No, of course not and I don't know why this is a fall back position all the time. I am a huge proponent of civil liberties in general and am a near absolutist on free speech. However, just because they have a right to their opinion does not mean they can expect to exercise it with impunity and without someone exercising their right to point out what staggering morons they are. Government should never impose restrictions on speech but society and the market place of ideas should feel free to crush them like the intellectual gnats they are.

Quote:And where did I say they WERE right?

You didn't say they were right but you did seem to imply their opinion was somehow equal of consideration.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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10-09-2010, 09:05 AM
 
RE: Dr. Dino
(10-09-2010 06:47 AM)BnW Wrote:  
Quote:Preposterous? That seems rather insulting.

I wasn't going for insulting so perhaps that was a poor word choice on my part.

OK - no problem

(10-09-2010 06:47 AM)BnW Wrote:  These people don't change when their notions are refuted and that is part of the problem with them. They are not interested in offering actual critiques. It's like arguing with someone who insists 2 + 2 = 5. You can show them 2 objects and then add 2 more objects and count the objects up in front of them and prove, beyond any doubt, that there are 4 objects. And then they look at you and say "you're wrong, 2 + 2 = 5", or "I'm Brian Fellows!". Either way, objective truth is not their goal. These people are similar to Holocaust deniers; there is an underlying agenda here and step 1 for them is to claim that observable facts or logical calculations are not what they appear. Once they win that argument, and they have in some circles, you start towards some very scary ground.
In most cases, I have no a priori expectation that they will change their minds or even concede that I have legitimate points. However, as time goes on, their arguments change in response to repeated atheist challenges to those arguments. I find it useful to see what they're saying, but I give them no credence.

(10-09-2010 06:47 AM)BnW Wrote:  Which brings me to:
Quote:I don't feel threatened by them, so their criticisms of science are of interest to me.

You should feel threatened by them. You should feel very threatened by them. We've already seen when a sitting President feels that enough of these yahoos has helped put him into office. 8 years of an administration that took the basic position that creation science deserves equal time in our policy decisions as actual evidence based science. It impacted all types of decisions. In some states, it is impacting what is taught in schools. The long term impacts of these people having political power is frightening.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.
This is probably another point where we're just going to disagree. If they become successful in establishing, say, a christian theocracy here in the USA, then I will be threatened by that and will do whatever I can to address it. However, absent that, I refuse to be afraid of people who are speaking gibberish and offering only irrational arguments, or arguments laced with logical fallacies. The GWBush & Crime Inc. administration had a finite lifetime ... as bad as it was, I knew it eventually would come to an end.

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I still have hope that Americans on the whole won't fall victim to this irrational garbage. Besides ... what alternative is there? If they have the right to free expression, as we all seem to agree, what can I do? Live in fear? Nope - not going to live in fear when I can do nothing by my own moral standards to prevent them from spewing this gibberish.

(10-09-2010 06:47 AM)BnW Wrote:  
Quote:Would you deny them their right to freedom of expression simply because they're wrong?

No, of course not and I don't know why this is a fall back position all the time. I am a huge proponent of civil liberties in general and am a near absolutist on free speech. However, just because they have a right to their opinion does not mean they can expect to exercise it with impunity and without someone exercising their right to point out what staggering morons they are. Government should never impose restrictions on speech but society and the market place of ideas should feel free to crush them like the intellectual gnats they are.

I have no objection whatsoever to your efforts to 'crush' their balderdash. Hammer away at them if you desire. I'm not sure how effective you can be, but I wish you the best of luck.

(10-09-2010 06:47 AM)BnW Wrote:  
Quote:And where did I say they WERE right?
You didn't say they were right but you did seem to imply their opinion was somehow equal of consideration.
Weeeeelll .. to paraphrase my post on this, I said I find it useful to see the most recent nonsense they're spewing.
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10-09-2010, 12:34 PM
RE: Dr. Dino
Quote:This is probably another point where we're just going to disagree. If they become successful in establishing, say, a christian theocracy here in the USA, then I will be threatened by that and will do whatever I can to address it. However, absent that, I refuse to be afraid of people who are speaking gibberish and offering only irrational arguments, or arguments laced with logical fallacies. The GWBush & Crime Inc. administration had a finite lifetime ... as bad as it was, I knew it eventually would come to an end.

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I still have hope that Americans on the whole won't fall victim to this irrational garbage. Besides ... what alternative is there? If they have the right to free expression, as we all seem to agree, what can I do? Live in fear? Nope - not going to live in fear when I can do nothing by my own moral standards to prevent them from spewing this gibberish.

Given the choices, I'd rather that I'm being paranoid vs. your being naive. However, I do think that we can't just sit idly by and hope things all work out for the best. And no, I'm not sure exactly what that means in terms of what actions to take.

Quote:Weeeeelll .. to paraphrase my post on this, I said I find it useful to see the most recent nonsense they're spewing.

If nothing else, their nonsense is all funnier than anything Tracy Morgan has ever done. I guess that has value.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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11-09-2010, 01:35 AM
RE: Dr. Dino
(10-09-2010 12:34 PM)BnW Wrote:  
Quote:Perhaps I'm being naive, but I still have hope that Americans on the whole won't fall victim to this irrational garbage. Besides ... what alternative is there? If they have the right to free expression, as we all seem to agree, what can I do? Live in fear? Nope - not going to live in fear when I can do nothing by my own moral standards to prevent them from spewing this gibberish.

Given the choices, I'd rather that I'm being paranoid vs. your being naive. However, I do think that we can't just sit idly by and hope things all work out for the best. And no, I'm not sure exactly what that means in terms of what actions to take.

I have seen many programs on the rise of Adoph Hitler to power. One line from one of those programs is a profound warning.

"All it takes for evil to take control is for good people to do nothing."
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11-09-2010, 03:23 AM
 
RE: Dr. Dino
(11-09-2010 01:35 AM)No J. Wrote:  I have seen many programs on the rise of Adoph Hitler to power. One line from one of those programs is a profound warning.

"All it takes for evil to take control is for good people to do nothing."
All well and good, but if you accept freedom of expression, just what is you think we should be doing? I think we are doing something by offering alternative perspectives to the theist sites - weren't not sitting 'idly by' - we're advocating our point of view.

I suppose we could try to post something on their sites, but I suspect they don't want contrary opinions heard on their sites, because such would be blasphemy to them. That's an important difference between them and us. We propose a rational debate with all sides free to express themselves - they prefer scriptural quotations and irrational nonsense and want to consign us to eternal torment!
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11-09-2010, 03:34 AM
 
RE: Dr. Dino
(11-09-2010 03:23 AM)2buckchuck Wrote:  ...That's an important difference between them and us. We propose a rational debate with all sides free to express themselves - they prefer scriptural quotations and irrational nonsense and want to consign us to eternal torment!

Maybe.

But once in a while you reach one. And once in a while, you get one like Barley, who is at least willing to listen without condescension in his messages. That's a step in the right direction.

And there are some atheists that refuse a civil discussion about christianity, as well. Trust me, I know a few.
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