Drafting and War
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05-08-2017, 03:22 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(05-08-2017 02:34 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 03:09 AM)morondog Wrote:  How is it different? Some politician decides that you, who have no quarrel with the Vietnamese, are required to go fight them against your own will? I see no difference. Old idiots decide war is necessary and send young idiots to die in it, and if a young idiot decides not to go he's somehow a criminal? That's what's absurd. Period.




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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-08-2017, 03:24 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(04-08-2017 08:13 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 08:10 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  You tell me. I was just a boy at that time and my television consisted of Looney Tunes and Captain Kangaroo.

What gets air time today? The noisy ones, the ones that reinforce the popular viewpoint, etc. The Kent State shooting was put forward as a common event, not an anomaly.

I get that ... but there's a larger dataset going deeper in history, don't you think?
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05-08-2017, 03:29 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(05-08-2017 02:08 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Another issue is that the idea of waiting for an imminent threat before getting involved, as honorable as it may sound to those who don't understand the bigger picture of leverage management as it relates to our ability to fight a potential adversary, is like waiting until you're in checkmate before you make your move.

If we discover that some arbitrary, similarly powerful threat is about to load up and head over, and has a plan in place to do so successfully, it's too late. We've already lost. Survival is about maintaining the flow of resources on which you depend (whether through direct control or through the enforcement of international laws intended to keep things "fair", whatever the hell that even means), predicting potential threats, and changing their course before they become actual threats. The practice of being reactive as opposed to proactive does not work in the long term.

This is exactly why "war is an extension of politics," in the vast majority of cases.
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06-08-2017, 06:35 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(05-08-2017 02:34 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  


Cassius Clay is (was) a poor example for debating conscription or conscientious objection. Initially Clay failed the army's writing and spelling entrance tests, and later on—when the tests were relaxed—refused to register for military service. He was then charged with an offence in 1967 (and his boxing license suspended) when his conscientious objection was overruled by the 5th circuit court.

Subsequently his alleged beliefs in his religion, that of Islam, were considered sufficient for the US Supreme Court to overturn the original charge. Clay said "War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers."

In fact, US sportswriter and Vietnam veteran Joe Bruno said of Clay after his death he "may have been great fighter, but he was also a shameless draft dodger, who refused to fight for his country in the Vietnam War."

—Put simply, Clay was an egotistical, lying coward who hid behind the shield of a war-mongering religion of hate, and who once said: "My enemy is the white people, not Viet Cong or Chinese or Japanese."

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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06-08-2017, 06:40 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(05-08-2017 02:25 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 12:48 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  I posted an example above about WWII conscription you might find interesting.

You said IIRC that they drafted people because they didn't actually want volunteers because they were getting volunteers from critical industries. That still says sweet fuck all for the enthusiasm of those drafted. Although I have an idea from my reading that patriotism was running high in the US at the time, so probably a lot of those drafted were happy to serve. Even so though, the fact that it was made compulsory suggests that there were at least a significant number who were less than delighted to be sent off to fight other people's wars.
You have numbers, or just impressions from the entertainment media?
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06-08-2017, 06:41 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(05-08-2017 03:24 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 08:13 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  What gets air time today? The noisy ones, the ones that reinforce the popular viewpoint, etc. The Kent State shooting was put forward as a common event, not an anomaly.

I get that ... but there's a larger dataset going deeper in history, don't you think?

No.
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06-08-2017, 07:07 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(05-08-2017 06:13 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Can you cite a reference that supports your claim that conscripts are/were historically against fighting perceived military threats to national security? Or is this simply personal opinion?

I could present you with my grandfathers diary from WWI. I could also present you with numerous accounts of veterans and how they felt. Also with the account how Hitler reacted to soldiers not being as excited to go to war as they were on the eve of WWI when the general public didn't know yet what war was about.

But I leave it at what Hermann Goering said to the psychologist Gilbert at Nuremberg:
Quote:Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.[…] That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Most people don't value national security over their own lives.

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06-08-2017, 09:40 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(06-08-2017 07:07 AM)abaris Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 06:13 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Can you cite a reference that supports your claim that conscripts are/were historically against fighting perceived military threats to national security? Or is this simply personal opinion?

I could present you with my grandfathers diary from WWI. I could also present you with numerous accounts of veterans and how they felt.....

I'd appreciate it if you could do that, as I've never seen any convincing evidence supporting the non-involvement notion—with specific regard to conscripts.

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06-08-2017, 10:12 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(06-08-2017 06:35 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 02:34 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  


Cassius Clay is (was) a poor example for debating conscription or conscientious objection. Initially Clay failed the army's writing and spelling entrance tests, and later on—when the tests were relaxed—refused to register for military service. He was then charged with an offence in 1967 (and his boxing license suspended) when his conscientious objection was overruled by the 5th circuit court.

Subsequently his alleged beliefs in his religion, that of Islam, were considered sufficient for the US Supreme Court to overturn the original charge. Clay said "War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers."

In fact, US sportswriter and Vietnam veteran Joe Bruno said of Clay after his death he "may have been great fighter, but he was also a shameless draft dodger, who refused to fight for his country in the Vietnam War."

—Put simply, Clay was an egotistical, lying coward who hid behind the shield of a war-mongering religion of hate, and who once said: "My enemy is the white people, not Viet Cong or Chinese or Japanese."

You just can't believe that the man was sincere can you? Instead you know what he "really" thought. Mind-reading again? Oh and for an egotistical lying coward he sure went to jail and stood up for his beliefs exactly like an egotistical lying coward wouldn't.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-08-2017, 10:16 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(06-08-2017 06:35 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 02:34 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  


Cassius Clay is (was) a poor example for debating conscription or conscientious objection. Initially Clay failed the army's writing and spelling entrance tests, and later on—when the tests were relaxed—refused to register for military service. He was then charged with an offence in 1967 (and his boxing license suspended) when his conscientious objection was overruled by the 5th circuit court.

Subsequently his alleged beliefs in his religion, that of Islam, were considered sufficient for the US Supreme Court to overturn the original charge. Clay said "War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers."

In fact, US sportswriter and Vietnam veteran Joe Bruno said of Clay after his death he "may have been great fighter, but he was also a shameless draft dodger, who refused to fight for his country in the Vietnam War."

—Put simply, Clay was an egotistical, lying coward who hid behind the shield of a war-mongering religion of hate, and who once said: "My enemy is the white people, not Viet Cong or Chinese or Japanese."

I always figured it was about the money, nothing else.....

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