Drafting and War
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06-08-2017, 10:22 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(05-08-2017 07:14 AM)skyking Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 01:36 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  My step dad was going on about Trump possible starting a war and some of us getting drafted. Like that was the best thing that could happen. He's a military guy, while I am happy that his military service, which he wanted to do, got me into college. I have put my foot down over and over and said. "I don't want to be in the military. I refuse to fight in a war."

I like the freedoms with... somewhat have. But Drafting is one thing I'm like, "Doesn't that violate freedom of any kind? We call ourselves a free country, but we are nothing but cattle to the slaughter for an over the top military.

I don't want any blatant lie 'Hero's Death' for being in the military. Especially if I didn't want to be there in the first damn place. Like I said, we should have a choice, and when I read about drafting in the Vietnam War, I thought that it was against the supposed freedoms we have/had.

People shouldn't be forced to fight. And I swear Trump is going to start a meaningless war and the poor/middle class pay for it with their lives. I get some wars are a need, WW1 and WW2 are one of those, but a war just because of oil reserves that the US wants? Or just because Russia refuses to bend to the US's will? And we decide to poke North Korea a bit more just to start a fucking war.

It makes me scared to know that I will have no say if that does happen and will be fore to die for a man who's ego is bigger than mount Everest. But at least On my grave I can have the last say of 'Died because country is stupid.' or something like that.

What's worse about this, my damn Republican family is all fucking for drafting. Like being in the military is the best god given thing you can do. I just want to yell at them at times and say, "I am not fighting for a country that doesn't give two shits, or even a shit, about me!"

They'll take away our freedoms as soon as their is a bit of evidence against you. You have no right, you have no freedoms.
"You have owners, they own you." - George Carlin.
Was your stepdad deployed to a shooting conflict?

I did not get an answer here, but I can expand on my thoughts anyway.
Not a single one of my family members or friends who faught in WW II , Korea, or Viet Nam was the least bit hawkish. They had seen the worst of things and would wish that on anyone.
My completely anecdotal evidence is, the hawks might have served but did not fight.
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07-08-2017, 10:02 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(06-08-2017 10:12 AM)morondog Wrote:  You just can't believe that the man [Cassius Clay] was sincere can you?

Nope. He wanted to dodge the draft in order to continue with his very lucrative boxing career. He also conveniently converted from being a Christian (Baptist, as was his mother) to Islam for the sole purposes of relying dfensively on its alleged tenets against fighting. (As per [2:190]— You may fight in the cause of God against those who attack you, but do not aggress. God does not love the aggressors, for example.) Apparently giving someone else multiple concussions in a boxing ring and leaving them in a bloodied heap is not considered "aggressive" LOL.

Quote:Oh and for an egotistical lying coward he sure went to jail and stood up for his beliefs exactly like an egotistical lying coward wouldn't.

I can't find any references that confirm Clay ever served any jail time for his refusal to register for the draft. As I understand it, he was sentenced to five years imprisonment, but this sentence—which was later overturned—was never carried out during the period of his appeal.

Can you cite any references that confirm your claim about Clay being jailed?

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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07-08-2017, 10:35 AM
RE: Drafting and War
Quote:If we discover that some arbitrary, similarly powerful threat is about to load up and head over, and has a plan in place to do so successfully, it's too late. We've already lost.


Precisely what Bush the Dumber claimed in Iraq. How'd that work out?

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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07-08-2017, 10:55 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(07-08-2017 10:02 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(06-08-2017 10:12 AM)morondog Wrote:  You just can't believe that the man [Cassius Clay] was sincere can you?

Nope. He wanted to dodge the draft in order to continue with his very lucrative boxing career. He also conveniently converted from being a Christian (Baptist, as was his mother) to Islam for the sole purposes of relying dfensively on its alleged tenets against fighting. (As per [2:190]— You may fight in the cause of God against those who attack you, but do not aggress. God does not love the aggressors, for example.) Apparently giving someone else multiple concussions in a boxing ring and leaving them in a bloodied heap is not considered "aggressive" LOL.

Quote:Oh and for an egotistical lying coward he sure went to jail and stood up for his beliefs exactly like an egotistical lying coward wouldn't.

I can't find any references that confirm Clay ever served any jail time for his refusal to register for the draft. As I understand it, he was sentenced to five years imprisonment, but this sentence—which was later overturned—was never carried out during the period of his appeal.

Can you cite any references that confirm your claim about Clay being jailed?

Guardian article here. In summary, yes, Muhammad Ali did not go to jail. I made an error - it was something that I picked up as hearsay and failed to fact check.
https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/...m-war-1967

However he did face several consequences for his refusal to be drafted, including losing his boxing licence which kind of gives the lie to your claim that he did it for money. And it was only when his conviction was overturned, that his prison sentence was removed. So yes, he very much did stand up for his beliefs.

There's a much longer slate article here: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p...r_and.html

Quote:On April 19, 1971, Chauncey Eskridge argued before the Supreme Court that Muhammad Ali was a legitimate conscientious objector, forbidden to fight by a religion in which he fervently believed. Two months later, the court declared a winner in Clay v. United States: a unanimous decision for Muhammad Ali.
So that's one strike against you for mind-reading, unless you're more competent than the US supreme court at the same.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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07-08-2017, 11:35 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(07-08-2017 10:35 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:If we discover that some arbitrary, similarly powerful threat is about to load up and head over, and has a plan in place to do so successfully, it's too late. We've already lost.


Precisely what Bush the Dumber claimed in Iraq. How'd that work out?

Or France in 1939.

Oh, wait... Rolleyes
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07-08-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(07-08-2017 10:02 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Apparently giving someone else multiple concussions in a boxing ring and leaving them in a bloodied heap is not considered "aggressive" LOL.

No, it's not aggression since both person who stand in the ring are consenting to fight one another following specific rules. An aggressor is someone who attacks people not someone who compete against people who have agreed to the competition. Note that boxer don't aim to kill or even permanently injure one another even if this happens once in while. There also a majpr difference than waging war and practicing a combat sport. Its good to note that Ali conversion to Islam and opposition to draft was largely motivated by the Black Civil Right movement.

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07-08-2017, 01:30 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(07-08-2017 10:35 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:If we discover that some arbitrary, similarly powerful threat is about to load up and head over, and has a plan in place to do so successfully, it's too late. We've already lost.


Precisely what Bush the Dumber claimed in Iraq. How'd that work out?

Almost every intel agency in the world agreed about the nature of the threat, even those with dissimilar interests (i.e. China), even if they might not have agreed on the solution. In the end there were 40 different countries involved in the invasion of Iraq. If that action was incorrect it was not solely Bush's mistake, and it does not disprove the statement I made.

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07-08-2017, 01:57 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(05-08-2017 06:13 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 03:09 AM)morondog Wrote:  ...Some politician decides that you, who have no quarrel with the Vietnamese, are required to go fight them against your own will?

Can you cite a reference that supports your claim that conscripts are/were historically against fighting perceived military threats to national security? Or is this simply personal opinion?

Ahem ... he specifically referenced the War in Vietnam. I'm not aware that the Vietnamese were ever even remotely a threat to US national security. We weren't defending anything -- we were the aggressors. That's a big part of the reason why there was so much resistance to that war, and why people were so reluctant to fight in it.
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07-08-2017, 02:13 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(07-08-2017 01:57 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 06:13 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Can you cite a reference that supports your claim that conscripts are/were historically against fighting perceived military threats to national security? Or is this simply personal opinion?

Ahem ... he specifically referenced the War in Vietnam. I'm not aware that the Vietnamese were ever even remotely a threat to US national security. We weren't defending anything -- we were the aggressors. That's a big part of the reason why there was so much resistance to that war, and why people were so reluctant to fight in it.

We were not " aggressors".

We honored an alliance treaty, then when the French bailed out, found ourselves stuck with a tarbaby.....

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07-08-2017, 02:15 PM
RE: Drafting and War
Plus the fact that Vietnam draft dodgers faced such harsh punishments and were so reviled somewhat shows that at least there a noticeable problem of people not being thrilled to have the opportunity to serve.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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