Drafting and War
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
07-08-2017, 02:16 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(07-08-2017 02:13 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 01:57 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Ahem ... he specifically referenced the War in Vietnam. I'm not aware that the Vietnamese were ever even remotely a threat to US national security. We weren't defending anything -- we were the aggressors. That's a big part of the reason why there was so much resistance to that war, and why people were so reluctant to fight in it.

We were not " aggressors".

We honored an alliance treaty, then when the French bailed out, found ourselves stuck with a tarbaby.....

OK, I'll grant that. Nevertheless, I stand by my more important statement that the Vietnamese were never any threat to US national security.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Grasshopper's post
07-08-2017, 02:22 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(07-08-2017 02:16 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 02:13 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  We were not " aggressors".

We honored an alliance treaty, then when the French bailed out, found ourselves stuck with a tarbaby.....

OK, I'll grant that. Nevertheless, I stand by my more important statement that the Vietnamese were never any threat to US national security.

In a way, they were.

When you make treaties and make obligations you find yourself making an ugly decision - stand by your obligation and be deemed honorable and trustworthy, or renege and be held in contempt. By challenging our allies the North Vietnamese challenged us.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes onlinebiker's post
07-08-2017, 02:28 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(07-08-2017 02:22 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 02:16 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  OK, I'll grant that. Nevertheless, I stand by my more important statement that the Vietnamese were never any threat to US national security.

In a way, they were.

When you make treaties and make obligations you find yourself making an ugly decision - stand by your obligation and be deemed honorable and trustworthy, or renege and be held in contempt. By challenging our allies the North Vietnamese challenged us.

We eventually "bailed out" of Vietnam anyway, just like the French did. There is no shortage of contempt in the world for either us or the French, but I somehow doubt that bailing out of Vietnam is the reason for it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Grasshopper's post
07-08-2017, 02:32 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(07-08-2017 02:16 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 02:13 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  We were not " aggressors".

We honored an alliance treaty, then when the French bailed out, found ourselves stuck with a tarbaby.....

OK, I'll grant that. Nevertheless, I stand by my more important statement that the Vietnamese were never any threat to US national security.
You may stand by this statement but sadly politicians won't care. If there is something to be gained just about everything can be matter of national security I think.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Szuchow's post
07-08-2017, 02:33 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(07-08-2017 02:22 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  When you make treaties and make obligations you find yourself making an ugly decision - stand by your obligation and be deemed honorable and trustworthy, or renege and be held in contempt. By challenging our allies the North Vietnamese challenged us.

And back a Western leaning dictatorship against an eastern leaning dictatorship. On the backs of the indigenous population, which lost more than a million lives in the process. There was no good or evil in this conflict and ultimately it was left to the Vietnamese to do away with the unspeakably evil Pol Pot regime in '79, which also rose in the wake of the Vietnam war and it's internationalisation.

[Image: Labrador%20and%20Title.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like abaris's post
07-08-2017, 02:48 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(07-08-2017 02:32 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 02:16 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  OK, I'll grant that. Nevertheless, I stand by my more important statement that the Vietnamese were never any threat to US national security.
You may stand by this statement but sadly politicians won't care. If there is something to be gained just about everything can be matter of national security I think.

I think the rationale at the time was that we were obligated to fight Communism whenever and wherever it sprang up -- except, of course, in countries that might be able to beat us, like Russia and China. It is ironic that tiny little Vietnam turned out to be more than we could handle. And, contrary to the "domino theory", our failure in Vietnam didn't lead to a worldwide Communist takeover.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Grasshopper's post
07-08-2017, 03:19 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(07-08-2017 02:48 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  It is ironic that tiny little Vietnam turned out to be more than we could handle. And, contrary to the "domino theory", our failure in Vietnam didn't lead to a worldwide Communist takeover.

It's the typical asymetric conflict. The North just had to sit the USA out to win. Which was even easier, since the regime in the South was deeply unpopular. Same as Afghanistan actually. No invader managed to get a hold of that country. Neither the Brits in the 19th century, nor the Soviets, nor the US led coalition. Once they retreat it will automatically fall back to the warlords.

[Image: Labrador%20and%20Title.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like abaris's post
08-08-2017, 10:48 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(07-08-2017 02:22 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  When you make treaties and make obligations you find yourself making an ugly decision - stand by your obligation and be deemed honorable and trustworthy, or renege and be held in contempt. By challenging our allies the North Vietnamese challenged us.

Exactly. It was because of the ANZUS alliance that Australia sent troops to Vietnam. The potential adverse effects on the alliance of not supporting the United States in Vietnam was a key consideration of the Aus government in the late 1950s.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-08-2017, 11:27 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(08-08-2017 10:48 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 02:22 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  When you make treaties and make obligations you find yourself making an ugly decision - stand by your obligation and be deemed honorable and trustworthy, or renege and be held in contempt. By challenging our allies the North Vietnamese challenged us.

Exactly. It was because of the ANZUS alliance that Australia sent troops to Vietnam. The potential adverse effects on the alliance of not supporting the United States in Vietnam was a key consideration of the Aus government in the late 1950s.

Fantastic. Explain to me why opposition to being drafted to fight in some war your nation entered because of a treaty obligation is so bad? Is it really cowardice to decline to let some fuck from your government, who're so goddamn inept that they created the mess, dictate where and when you'll risk your life, and that you must kill other people?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like morondog's post
08-08-2017, 12:12 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(08-08-2017 11:27 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(08-08-2017 10:48 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Exactly. It was because of the ANZUS alliance that Australia sent troops to Vietnam. The potential adverse effects on the alliance of not supporting the United States in Vietnam was a key consideration of the Aus government in the late 1950s.

Fantastic. Explain to me why opposition to being drafted to fight in some war your nation entered because of a treaty obligation is so bad? Is it really cowardice to decline to let some fuck from your government, who're so goddamn inept that they created the mess, dictate where and when you'll risk your life, and that you must kill other people?

Gov has vested interest in such being called cowardice. Otherwise it could lose it's obedient tools; I refuse alleged right of quasi fascist* clique rulling my country to dictate me that I should kill someone else for said clique interest. Or just so clowns could be patted on shoulder by Uncle Sam.

*Exaggerating for rhetoric effect.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Szuchow's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: