Drafting and War
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08-08-2017, 12:21 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(08-08-2017 12:12 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Gov has vested interest in such being called cowardice. Otherwise it could lose it's obedient tools;

I gues the Kinks had it right, almost 50 years ago.

Quote:Give the scum a gun and make the bugger fight
And be sure to have deserters shot on sight
If he dies we'll send a medal to his wife

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08-08-2017, 12:24 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(08-08-2017 12:21 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(08-08-2017 12:12 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Gov has vested interest in such being called cowardice. Otherwise it could lose it's obedient tools;

I gues the Kinks had it right, almost 50 years ago.

Quote:Give the scum a gun and make the bugger fight
And be sure to have deserters shot on sight
If he dies we'll send a medal to his wife
I would put it differently - give a gun and medal to one easily manipulated and try to shame one who don't want kill others in name of rulling clique interests. It's hardly a good lyrics though.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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08-08-2017, 12:27 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(08-08-2017 11:27 AM)morondog Wrote:  Explain to me why opposition to being drafted to fight in some war your nation entered because of a treaty obligation is so bad?

ANZUS was created as a guarantee of mutual military cooperation. That's the whole point—which you seem to be ignoring.

Quote:Is it really cowardice to decline to let some fuck from your government, who're so goddamn inept that they created the mess, dictate where and when you'll risk your life, and that you must kill other people?

Your pacifist standpoint is very naive. At any rate, yes; it is cowardice to refuse to fight in a conflict your elected government has decided to participate in—for whatever reasons. (And you need to lighten up with the pejoratives.)

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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08-08-2017, 12:30 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(08-08-2017 12:27 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Your pacifist standpoint is very naive. At any rate, yes; it is cowardice to refuse to fight in a conflict your elected government has decided to participate in—for whatever reasons. (And you need to lighten up with the pejoratives.)

Armchair general much? When I read such statements I always wished the one making it would be drafted into one of these conflicts. Just to see how the react when their number's up.

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08-08-2017, 01:43 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(08-08-2017 12:27 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(08-08-2017 11:27 AM)morondog Wrote:  Explain to me why opposition to being drafted to fight in some war your nation entered because of a treaty obligation is so bad?

ANZUS was created as a guarantee of mutual military cooperation. That's the whole point—which you seem to be ignoring.
Where in any military cooperation does it state that a draft is necessary?

Quote:
Quote:Is it really cowardice to decline to let some fuck from your government, who're so goddamn inept that they created the mess, dictate where and when you'll risk your life, and that you must kill other people?

Your pacifist standpoint is very naive. At any rate, yes; it is cowardice to refuse to fight in a conflict your elected government has decided to participate in—for whatever reasons. (And you need to lighten up with the pejoratives.)
You're pissed with me for being rude? Rolleyes Christ. I think it's more cowardice to send kids off to die in some forsaken place against their own will on the flimsy excuse that you're an elected government. If the elected government wants to get involved in conflict why not use a professional army? It's not pacifism. It's objection to stupid, unethical ways to make war - if there is such a thing as an ethical way to make war.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-08-2017, 01:56 PM
RE: Drafting and War
Syz, thought experiment for you:

Your government enters a treaty with Japan, that they will make Japanese cars, such and such quantity, for the next X years. Suddenly a few years later, production is falling behind - way behind. They decide to draft anyone and everyone to work in the automotive assembly plants, to honour their treaty obligation.

To make it fair there's a draft board, and people can apply for deferment if they have a good reason.

The draft is for 2 years spells working in the factory. All they need are grunts. You do your stint, you come back, you've performed your national service, and done your country proud, and you've helped honour the treaty agreement. Also you are paid a reasonable wage for such unskilled labour, for the time of your service. Good service earns you a special badge at the end of it. It is dirty, dangerous work though.

Tell me, would you be happy to serve? For the government to control your life to that degree that they decided where you must work and live? Even though it's just for a period of 2 years.

I can tell you that I would not. Not for a second. Who the fuck do the government think they are, that just because some bunch of politicians (admittedly acting in what they thought were the best interests of the country) made a lousy deal, they can change my life around entirely, not give me any option, and force me to work as a slave? Do you think any of those politicians will be lining up to work in the factories?

To make it worse, a few years later, after a lot of people have done the draft, the government announces that they're shutting down the automotive plants. It was a bad deal in the first place, they're getting out. Honouring the agreement was worth a shot, but in the end it was costing the country too much.

You think people will be happy with this deal?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-08-2017, 02:05 PM
RE: Drafting and War
This very funny to read. Thumbsup
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08-08-2017, 02:22 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(08-08-2017 01:56 PM)morondog Wrote:  Who the fuck do the government think they are, that just because some bunch of politicians (admittedly acting in what they thought were the best interests of the country) made a lousy deal, they can change my life around entirely, ...

Just a thought -- if the politicians that run your country screw up badly enough, it's going to change your life around entirely -- not deliberately, but simply because actions have consequences. Your fate is inseparably twisted up with your country's fate, regardless of anyone's individual decisions.
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08-08-2017, 03:13 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(08-08-2017 02:22 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Your fate is inseparably twisted up with your country's fate, regardless of anyone's individual decisions.

No, it isn't. History has taught us differently and if that wasn't enough, the present teaches us differently. There are good and bad causes to pick up arms. My country, right or wrong, is probably the worst cause for doing it.

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08-08-2017, 03:26 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(08-08-2017 03:13 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(08-08-2017 02:22 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Your fate is inseparably twisted up with your country's fate, regardless of anyone's individual decisions.

No, it isn't. History has taught us differently and if that wasn't enough, the present teaches us differently. There are good and bad causes to pick up arms. My country, right or wrong, is probably the worst cause for doing it.

That's not quite the point I was making, though. I am against the draft except in cases of dire necessity, and I would not fight in a war I considered immoral. I was just taking issue with the way he expressed it, as if the leaders of your country have no right to affect your life at all. That's a pipe dream. Whatever they do, your life will be affected, like it or not. That's just cause and effect. And that's all I was saying.
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