Drafting and War
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08-08-2017, 05:37 PM
RE: Drafting and War
Quote:Or France in 1939.

Maginot line. Misplaced confidence.



And Bush was full of shit....they knew it and deliberately lied.

http://fair.org/home/bush-blair-and-the-...-iraq-war/

Quote:On May 1, 2005, the London Sunday Times printed secret, leaked minutes from a meeting Prime Minister Tony Blair held with close advisors on July 23, 2002. Blair and his cabinet discussed the Bush administration plans for war in Iraq, and the political and military contingencies for British support for an invasion. Richard Dearlove, head of M16, the British Intelligence service, reported to the group what he learned during a visit to Washington:

Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.

Stop believing your own bullshit.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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08-08-2017, 06:14 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(08-08-2017 12:27 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Your pacifist standpoint is very naive. At any rate, yes; it is cowardice to refuse to fight in a conflict your elected government has decided to participate in—for whatever reasons. (And you need to lighten up with the pejoratives.)

So, let's do a hypothetical.

You've been drafted into the Wehrmacht. You're an Unteroffizier leading a squad that has been ordered to invade Poland, ahead of any declaration of war. You tell your leutnant that you won't participate in the invasion, knowing full well that exposes you to onerous punishments, but you stick to it because you know that the invasion is illegitimate and doesn't even have the fig-leaf of a declaration of war.

In your eyes, you would be a coward, right?

I think your conception of cowardice and bravery are each extremely limited. I think that limitation arises as a result of your personal experiences, which I respect even as I find dismay at the lessons they have taught you.

Cowardice and bravery both have moral dimensions as well as physical. Simply because you yourself have exhibited physical bravery on the battlefield does not mean that those who exhibited moral bravery in refusing to prosecute an unjust war are cowards. It only means that they have an understanding of another facet of moral courage which you don't recognize for having not exercised it yourself.

I'm sorry, but I find your outlook very shallow. Even as I disagree with, say, Morondog here in this thread about national obligation, I respect his courage to stand up for his beliefs knowing that if push came to shove he'd be in a shithole of trouble ... just like you with your salute and jaunty march.

I had no problem donning the uniform so that others who had their own views didn't have to. I'm sure that they contribute to my well-being in other, and perhaps better, ways.
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08-08-2017, 07:20 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 01:36 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  My step dad was going on about Trump possible starting a war and some of us getting drafted. Like that was the best thing that could happen. He's a military guy, while I am happy that his military service, which he wanted to do, got me into college. I have put my foot down over and over and said. "I don't want to be in the military. I refuse to fight in a war."

I like the freedoms with... somewhat have. But Drafting is one thing I'm like, "Doesn't that violate freedom of any kind? We call ourselves a free country, but we are nothing but cattle to the slaughter for an over the top military.

I don't want any blatant lie 'Hero's Death' for being in the military. Especially if I didn't want to be there in the first damn place. Like I said, we should have a choice, and when I read about drafting in the Vietnam War, I thought that it was against the supposed freedoms we have/had.

People shouldn't be forced to fight. And I swear Trump is going to start a meaningless war and the poor/middle class pay for it with their lives. I get some wars are a need, WW1 and WW2 are one of those, but a war just because of oil reserves that the US wants? Or just because Russia refuses to bend to the US's will? And we decide to poke North Korea a bit more just to start a fucking war.

It makes me scared to know that I will have no say if that does happen and will be fore to die for a man who's ego is bigger than mount Everest. But at least On my grave I can have the last say of 'Died because country is stupid.' or something like that.

What's worse about this, my damn Republican family is all fucking for drafting. Like being in the military is the best god given thing you can do. I just want to yell at them at times and say, "I am not fighting for a country that doesn't give two shits, or even a shit, about me!"

They'll take away our freedoms as soon as their is a bit of evidence against you. You have no right, you have no freedoms.
"You have owners, they own you." - George Carlin.

This comes up from time to time and it is very popular with the chicken hawks, pols and other assorted morons.

The leaders of the military from the late 70's on seems very set against a draft. They seem to prefer a volunteer force as more reliable which makes sense since people that want to be in there are and those that don't aren't.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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08-08-2017, 07:27 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(05-08-2017 03:02 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Sorry, but in my opinion this is an overly-idealistic, pseudo-philosophical, and basically naive view of the real world, and in particular of a militarised world.

Nobody in Australia has ever been forced "at the barrel of a gun" to serve in our military.
Well they certainly have been in the US. If you fail to report, the (armed) FBI comes for you. At that point your options are either report and serve, or refuse and be incarcerated, tried, and likely do prison time.

Quote:One could register formally as a conscientious objector, and take his case to court for determination of its legitimacy—which is exactly what hundreds of young blokes did during the Vietnam era.
One could do that in the US as well, At least, until so many people did it that they tightened the rules for CO status to the point where hardly anybody could get it. You had to be a member of one of a handful of small, restricted religious sects -- Quaker or Amish, for example.

Quote:Marriage and accredited study also exempted many more until age 26, which was the maximum age for conscriptees.
Likewise, in the US those were available options -- until they were removed. From 1971 onwards, a student deferment only lasts until the end of your current semester. There is no deferment for being married, and the paternity deferment ended in 1970.

Quote:If one refused to register for conscription, and didn't claim conscientious objection, then the mandatory alternative was two years imprisonment—although this usually ended up as around six months after good behaviour discounts.

—And your claim that conscription is ethically equal to slavery is absurd. Period.
Your own observation negates your last statement.

The government shows up at your door and says, "we are taking you away from your home and family, and you will work and fight for us until we decide to send you back, or else we will put you in prison". Slavery is involuntary servitude; conscription is involuntary military servitude.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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08-08-2017, 07:30 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(05-08-2017 06:13 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Can you cite a reference that supports your claim that conscripts are/were historically against fighting perceived military threats to national security? Or is this simply personal opinion?

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/403/698/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay_v._United_States

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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08-08-2017, 07:44 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(06-08-2017 06:35 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Cassius Clay is (was) a poor example for debating conscription or conscientious objection. Initially Clay failed the army's writing and spelling entrance tests, and later on—when the tests were relaxed—refused to register for military service. He was then charged with an offence in 1967 (and his boxing license suspended) when his conscientious objection was overruled by the 5th circuit court.

Actually he is an excellent example of the kind of crap the SSS was pulling at the time -- on a lot of people. First you get a deferment; then they move the goalposts and pull the rug out from under you. They you apply for CO, and they refuse to recognize your CO convictions as legitimate.

And BTW, during Vietnam you could only get CO status if -- among other things -- you professed belief in a Supreme Being.
No atheists or agnostics need apply.

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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08-08-2017, 07:54 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(07-08-2017 10:02 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Nope. He wanted to dodge the draft in order to continue with his very lucrative boxing career. He also conveniently converted from being a Christian (Baptist, as was his mother) to Islam for the sole purposes of relying dfensively on its alleged tenets against fighting.
Yeah, he made a conversion of convenience -- which he then just happened to maintain for the next 52 years.

LOL, indeed.Rolleyes

Quote:I can't find any references that confirm Clay ever served any jail time for his refusal to register for the draft. As I understand it, he was sentenced to five years imprisonment, but this sentence—which was later overturned—was never carried out during the period of his appeal.

Can you cite any references that confirm your claim about Clay being jailed?

He didn't serve time; he was allowed to remain free while his appeals moved through the courts.
He was merely deprived of his means of livelihood for the three years that took.

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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08-08-2017, 08:01 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(08-08-2017 12:27 PM)SYZ Wrote:  At any rate, yes; it is cowardice to refuse to fight in a conflict your elected government has decided to participate in—for whatever reasons.

Some might consider it a moral imperative.

And especially those who didn't elect the government.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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09-08-2017, 02:00 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(08-08-2017 03:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(08-08-2017 03:13 PM)abaris Wrote:  No, it isn't. History has taught us differently and if that wasn't enough, the present teaches us differently. There are good and bad causes to pick up arms. My country, right or wrong, is probably the worst cause for doing it.

That's not quite the point I was making, though. I am against the draft except in cases of dire necessity, and I would not fight in a war I considered immoral. I was just taking issue with the way he expressed it, as if the leaders of your country have no right to affect your life at all. That's a pipe dream. Whatever they do, your life will be affected, like it or not. That's just cause and effect. And that's all I was saying.

Do they have a right to affect my life? If you were born in North Korea and North Korea commits to war with the United States to preserve the lovely situation that the Un family finds itself in, you'd cheerfully go along with that? I was born in Zimbabwe and grew up there. When I was a teenager Zim sent an army to the DRC to basically steal as much mineral wealth as they could lay their hands on. If they'd held a draft, I should have accepted that? It's all very well if you trust your government to do the right thing - I don't trust any government an inch. They need watching, and they need accountability.

Look, I'm no anarchist. I believe that government has to exist and be effective - in today's world some degree of centralised planning is unavoidable. I don't trust blindly that free market economics will solve every problem. But ideals have to mean something. All the evidence that I've ever lived with in my life points to the fact that politicians are mostly out of their depth in dealing with political problems, if they are not outright incompetent. It's why political stuff that seems simple takes years or decades to resolve. And I am firmly opposed to allowing someone to make choices about my life, something as impactful as changing my career and sending me into a warzone, based on decisions made by politicians, who are not gods, but idiots just like me, or even *more* idiots than me.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-08-2017, 03:21 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(08-08-2017 02:22 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(08-08-2017 01:56 PM)morondog Wrote:  Who the fuck do the government think they are, that just because some bunch of politicians (admittedly acting in what they thought were the best interests of the country) made a lousy deal, they can change my life around entirely, ...

Just a thought -- if the politicians that run your country screw up badly enough, it's going to change your life around entirely -- not deliberately, but simply because actions have consequences.


Sure.

Quote: Your fate is inseparably twisted up with your country's fate, regardless of anyone's individual decisions.

If you can leave the country the it isn't inseparable twist; bad decisions will affect one but one isn't forced to go down with the ship.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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