Drafting and War
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09-08-2017, 07:33 AM
RE: Drafting and War
Contrary to what some here seem to believe ---

A draft makes a war LESS likely.

That is, if it's done.

The absence of a draft makes a war MORE likely.

Why?

It's pretty easy to lead those who aspire to be warriors off to war.

It' s much more difficult to convince shopkeepers, carpenters and the nerdy IT guy in the next cubicle to take up arms and go kill people and risk getting shot at.

.......................................

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09-08-2017, 07:56 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 07:33 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Contrary to what some here seem to believe ---

A draft makes a war LESS likely.

That is, if it's done.

The whole reason why the US did away with the draft after Vietnam. It's easier to deal with public opinion if their number's not up.

One could also say, it's one of the reasons why Germany did away with the draft some years ago. To send combatants off to foreign assignments without having to deal with public outrage.

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09-08-2017, 08:00 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 02:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(08-08-2017 03:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  That's not quite the point I was making, though. I am against the draft except in cases of dire necessity, and I would not fight in a war I considered immoral. I was just taking issue with the way he expressed it, as if the leaders of your country have no right to affect your life at all. That's a pipe dream. Whatever they do, your life will be affected, like it or not. That's just cause and effect. And that's all I was saying.

Do they have a right to affect my life? If you were born in North Korea and North Korea commits to war with the United States to preserve the lovely situation that the Un family finds itself in, you'd cheerfully go along with that? I was born in Zimbabwe and grew up there. When I was a teenager Zim sent an army to the DRC to basically steal as much mineral wealth as they could lay their hands on. If they'd held a draft, I should have accepted that? It's all very well if you trust your government to do the right thing - I don't trust any government an inch. They need watching, and they need accountability.

Look, I'm no anarchist. I believe that government has to exist and be effective - in today's world some degree of centralised planning is unavoidable. I don't trust blindly that free market economics will solve every problem. But ideals have to mean something. All the evidence that I've ever lived with in my life points to the fact that politicians are mostly out of their depth in dealing with political problems, if they are not outright incompetent. It's why political stuff that seems simple takes years or decades to resolve. And I am firmly opposed to allowing someone to make choices about my life, something as impactful as changing my career and sending me into a warzone, based on decisions made by politicians, who are not gods, but idiots just like me, or even *more* idiots than me.

I guess I should have just not said anything, because nobody is getting my point. No, I would not fight for North Korea's dictator (although, in that society, refusal to do so would probably get you killed); I don't think the government is always right, nor do I always trust them; and I said nothing about what they "have a right" to do. Those are all straw men. I was only pointing out the plain fact that, whatever they do, it will affect your life. To demand that government not affect your life in any way is to demand the impossible. That's all I meant.

But I'm tired of explaining it over and over and over, so just forget I said anything. Sheesh.
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09-08-2017, 08:05 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 03:21 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(08-08-2017 02:22 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Just a thought -- if the politicians that run your country screw up badly enough, it's going to change your life around entirely -- not deliberately, but simply because actions have consequences.


Sure.

Quote: Your fate is inseparably twisted up with your country's fate, regardless of anyone's individual decisions.

If you can leave the country the it isn't inseparable twist; bad decisions will affect one but one isn't forced to go down with the ship.

Right, but leaving the country (assuming you can) is in itself a major change in your life. The government's bad decisions (or the electorate's bad decisions) have affected your life by forcing you (or inducing you) to leave. Unless you're a lot more footloose and fancy free than I am, this cannot help but be a major upheaval. You cannot remain immune to the effect of your government's decisions. This was the gist of my comment, and it seems so obvious to me that I can't believe anyone is objecting to it. Maybe I just didn't express it very well. I guess I need to go enroll in "Communication 101".
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09-08-2017, 09:36 AM (This post was last modified: 09-08-2017 09:53 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 08:05 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 03:21 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Sure.


If you can leave the country the it isn't inseparable twist; bad decisions will affect one but one isn't forced to go down with the ship.

Right, but leaving the country (assuming you can) is in itself a major change in your life. The government's bad decisions (or the electorate's bad decisions) have affected your life by forcing you (or inducing you) to leave. Unless you're a lot more footloose and fancy free than I am, this cannot help but be a major upheaval. You cannot remain immune to the effect of your government's decisions. This was the gist of my comment, and it seems so obvious to me that I can't believe anyone is objecting to it. Maybe I just didn't express it very well. I guess I need to go enroll in "Communication 101".
I mostly agree, it's just inseparable fate that I object to. Sure, gov can force you to leave, and this certainly counts as affecting one life but after leaving your fate isn't tied to your old country any longer.

Edit: Still for majority of citizens fate probably would be tied as not everyone have means to escape, nor everyone would want to.

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09-08-2017, 12:43 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 07:33 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Contrary to what some here seem to believe ---

A draft makes a war LESS likely.

That is, if it's done.

The absence of a draft makes a war MORE likely.

Why?

It's pretty easy to lead those who aspire to be warriors off to war.

It' s much more difficult to convince shopkeepers, carpenters and the nerdy IT guy in the next cubicle to take up arms and go kill people and risk getting shot at.

When I entered this thread a few days ago, I was generaly opposed to the draft, but I am starting to shift heavily to support a military based around a drafting system. There is a lot of good arguments to be made in the defense of a drafting system.

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09-08-2017, 01:18 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 07:33 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Contrary to what some here seem to believe ---

A draft makes a war LESS likely.

That is, if it's done.

The absence of a draft makes a war MORE likely.

Why?

It's pretty easy to lead those who aspire to be warriors off to war.

It' s much more difficult to convince shopkeepers, carpenters and the nerdy IT guy in the next cubicle to take up arms and go kill people and risk getting shot at.

Maybe I'm just "thick" (as the British would say), or maybe I'm just misunderstanding your argument. I would agree with the final two statements, but I don't see how your conclusion (that a draft makes war less likely) follows from them. With or without a draft, there should be about the same number of "those who aspire to be warriors" in the armed services. With a draft, there will be a lot more of the second group in the armed services -- ergo, the total number of active military personnel will be larger. And once they're in there, "convincing" is no longer relevant. Soldiers follow orders. If they're told to go to war, they go. They may not be enthusiastic about it, or efficient at it, but they have nothing to say about whether or not a war happens. That decision is made by the people at the top, who if anything should be more confident about going to war with a larger army. So it would seem to me that, all other factors being equal, a draft = a larger military = a greater chance of going to war. What am I missing?

And although we are currently at war (practically, if not officially) without a draft, there was no shortage of wars when we had a draft. In 34 years (1940-1973), we had three major wars -- WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, with only a few years of peace between them. The draft wasn't doing much to keep the peace back then.
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09-08-2017, 01:22 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 12:43 PM)epronovost Wrote:  When I entered this thread a few days ago, I was generaly opposed to the draft, but I am starting to shift heavily to support a military based around a drafting system. There is a lot of good arguments to be made in the defense of a drafting system.

I haven't seen anything I'd regard as remotely convincing?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-08-2017, 01:24 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 01:22 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 12:43 PM)epronovost Wrote:  When I entered this thread a few days ago, I was generaly opposed to the draft, but I am starting to shift heavily to support a military based around a drafting system. There is a lot of good arguments to be made in the defense of a drafting system.

I haven't seen anything I'd regard as remotely convincing?

Do you want me to give you a run down of those I have found the most convincing so far and why?

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09-08-2017, 01:26 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 01:24 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 01:22 PM)morondog Wrote:  I haven't seen anything I'd regard as remotely convincing?

Do you want me to give you a run down of those I have found the most convincing so far and why?

That would be helpful Smile

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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