Drafting and War
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09-08-2017, 02:04 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 08:00 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 02:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  Do they have a right to affect my life? If you were born in North Korea and North Korea commits to war with the United States to preserve the lovely situation that the Un family finds itself in, you'd cheerfully go along with that? I was born in Zimbabwe and grew up there. When I was a teenager Zim sent an army to the DRC to basically steal as much mineral wealth as they could lay their hands on. If they'd held a draft, I should have accepted that? It's all very well if you trust your government to do the right thing - I don't trust any government an inch. They need watching, and they need accountability.

Look, I'm no anarchist. I believe that government has to exist and be effective - in today's world some degree of centralised planning is unavoidable. I don't trust blindly that free market economics will solve every problem. But ideals have to mean something. All the evidence that I've ever lived with in my life points to the fact that politicians are mostly out of their depth in dealing with political problems, if they are not outright incompetent. It's why political stuff that seems simple takes years or decades to resolve. And I am firmly opposed to allowing someone to make choices about my life, something as impactful as changing my career and sending me into a warzone, based on decisions made by politicians, who are not gods, but idiots just like me, or even *more* idiots than me.

I guess I should have just not said anything, because nobody is getting my point. No, I would not fight for North Korea's dictator (although, in that society, refusal to do so would probably get you killed); I don't think the government is always right, nor do I always trust them; and I said nothing about what they "have a right" to do. Those are all straw men. I was only pointing out the plain fact that, whatever they do, it will affect your life. To demand that government not affect your life in any way is to demand the impossible. That's all I meant.

But I'm tired of explaining it over and over and over, so just forget I said anything. Sheesh.

I don't often reply to my own posts, but I was unduly harsh here. I was a bit on edge this morning, and perhaps overreacted. I have no beef with morondog (I substantially agree with his positions in this thread), and I apologize if it seemed like I was yelling at him in the quoted post. I'm "back on my meds" now.

Tongue
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09-08-2017, 02:11 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 02:04 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 08:00 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I guess I should have just not said anything, because nobody is getting my point. No, I would not fight for North Korea's dictator (although, in that society, refusal to do so would probably get you killed); I don't think the government is always right, nor do I always trust them; and I said nothing about what they "have a right" to do. Those are all straw men. I was only pointing out the plain fact that, whatever they do, it will affect your life. To demand that government not affect your life in any way is to demand the impossible. That's all I meant.

But I'm tired of explaining it over and over and over, so just forget I said anything. Sheesh.

I don't often reply to my own posts, but I was unduly harsh here. I was a bit on edge this morning, and perhaps overreacted. I have no beef with morondog (I substantially agree with his positions in this thread), and I apologize if it seemed like I was yelling at him in the quoted post. I'm "back on my meds" now.

Tongue

I apologise too Smile I can be a bit... well very... rude... Also I didn't apologise until you did... which... was even more rude Tongue Oh well. Can't change that now. No hard feelings, as the actress said to the bishop.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-08-2017, 02:33 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 01:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 01:24 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Do you want me to give you a run down of those I have found the most convincing so far and why?

That would be helpful Smile

Note that I old these to be good arguments for the draft only in the following circomstances. That of a democratic nation whose military force is constituted almost only of drafted conscripts. Those conscript are paid and can occupy any position in the military from officer ranks to logistical personnel to active combat units. The period of mandatory enlistment is no longer than 4 years. Military service is mandatory between the age of 18 and 28 years old. There are no discrimination based on gender, gender identity and sexual orientation. Examptions for military services are based only on medical reasons and most be important enough so that ALL kind of military service is impossible, including non-combat positions.

1) Keeping an maintaining a permanent military force is a big expense that cannot be modulated easily depending on circomstances. Professionnal soldiers will require good pays and will seek advancement as they spend more and more years in the military. The skills and aptitudes of professionnal soldiers are almost a waste for the civil society in time of peace.

2) A military draft democratise the army. A diverse military is a more professionnal military as it neuters the ability to create a strong sub-culture that can negatively impact the training and recruitment process, but also how the military-industrial complex of the country operates. Furthermore, it reinforce the link between the civil authorities in a democracy and the military authority, thus reinforcing the ties of loyalty between the armed forces and the governement it serves.

3) Mandatory military services can offer a good an excellent equal opportunity to learn or develop skills in addition to be a good ''first job experience''. All member of the community thus gain at least one job experience to put on their C.V in addition to gain the opportunity to practice their academic skills in a work setting. It can aleviate some pressure caused by systemic poverty. Thats one of my favorite argument I must say.

4) Military personnel have a tendency to travel a lot in peace time be it to assist foreign nations after natural catastrophies for example or to simply participate in joint exercise with allied nations. Travelling is an excellent opportunity to learn for any citizen, a thing that many people might not consider when they actually join the military. I must admit though that this one is probably the weakest.

5) Any war or foreign country occupation like Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq are going to be met with much more resistence from the civil society in a country where the military is composed of drafted personnel. While the occupation of Iraq was extremely unpopular, it was far from being met with the same resistence than the Vietnam war. Its also good to note that the current american draft system isn't wideprayed enough to be efficient.

6) While a mandatory military draft can present a certain threat in the specter of wodesprayed militarism within one's culture, it can also present a massive boon by transmitting strong values of civic duties and solidarity. A military experience, even one that isn't desired, can help forge a sense of pride and create solid friendship. I think we can all tell from our personnel experience the time we were forced to do something we didn't wanted to, but it turns out it was actually great. I think a mandatory military draft can help people responsabilise themselves and gain a strong interest for their community prosperity and health.

7) A mandatory military service could improve national health. Maintaining a population combat ready implies that your population must have a good level of physical fitness on average. Military discipline and training can provide a very good psychological and physical environment to live in and teach good habits.

I would say these are those I found the most convincing. Personnaly, I have to admit they made me doubt of my own position on this issue. Maybe they won't be able to make a dent on your convictions, but personnaly, I haven't found an easy knockback argument to those. What do you think about them?

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09-08-2017, 02:52 PM
RE: Drafting and War
I think you have stated them well. It can't be denied that these are some excellent reasons to have a draft. I'm honestly surprised. I'll think about them some more myself, but off the top of my head:

1. Agreed, keeping expenses down is a good idea. But some level of professional soldiers is unavoidable. I think it's probably better to expand your professional soldiers somewhat and avoid citizen-soldiers who're there against their will. I think ultimately it will cost less to maintain a small force highly trained.

2. Hmm. It really democratises the army? Doesn't it mean rather that the rifts and schisms of civil society are transferred wholesale into the army? Rich kids become officers, ethnicities club together in their units, minorities are discriminated against etc.

3. Mandatory civil service, or some other programme - like for example American Peace corps - could achieve a similar effect in terms of burnishing one's CV.

4. I'm pretty sure people can be exposed to other places and cultures without needing to go there with a gun.

5. Sure, wars will become more difficult to justify. But in the meantime large numbers of poorly trained personnel will be deployed and killed for questionable reasons. At least a professional force expects to be dropped in the shit - it's in their contract.

6. I think other things can promote feeling of brotherhood of all mankind than being forced to fight.

7. I think compulsory beatings for unfit people will be a better way to maintain national health. Tongue I can see that a bettter national health is a possible effect, I just don't know if the benefit is worth the cost.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-08-2017, 03:47 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 01:18 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 07:33 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Contrary to what some here seem to believe ---

A draft makes a war LESS likely.

That is, if it's done.

The absence of a draft makes a war MORE likely.

Why?

It's pretty easy to lead those who aspire to be warriors off to war.

It' s much more difficult to convince shopkeepers, carpenters and the nerdy IT guy in the next cubicle to take up arms and go kill people and risk getting shot at.

Maybe I'm just "thick" (as the British would say), or maybe I'm just misunderstanding your argument. I would agree with the final two statements, but I don't see how your conclusion (that a draft makes war less likely) follows from them. With or without a draft, there should be about the same number of "those who aspire to be warriors" in the armed services. With a draft, there will be a lot more of the second group in the armed services -- ergo, the total number of active military personnel will be larger. And once they're in there, "convincing" is no longer relevant. Soldiers follow orders. If they're told to go to war, they go. They may not be enthusiastic about it, or efficient at it, but they have nothing to say about whether or not a war happens. That decision is made by the people at the top, who if anything should be more confident about going to war with a larger army. So it would seem to me that, all other factors being equal, a draft = a larger military = a greater chance of going to war. What am I missing?

And although we are currently at war (practically, if not officially) without a draft, there was no shortage of wars when we had a draft. In 34 years (1940-1973), we had three major wars -- WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, with only a few years of peace between them. The draft wasn't doing much to keep the peace back then.

You're assuming I support a large standing army of volunteers and conscripts.

I do not.

I do support a draft.

.....

If we need to raise an army, we draft the people needed to supplement the core of volunteers who served in peacetime.

We go off and fight the war.

Then when we're done, the draftees go home.


If you do not want to fight, we will find some other service like firefighting, paramedic or mortuary assistant.

....

It would also be a good idea for those that get drafted to go through a boot camp after high school.... Just to familiarize the possible draftees.

.....

It's even Constitutional.

.......................................

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09-08-2017, 03:55 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 03:47 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 01:18 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Maybe I'm just "thick" (as the British would say), or maybe I'm just misunderstanding your argument. I would agree with the final two statements, but I don't see how your conclusion (that a draft makes war less likely) follows from them. With or without a draft, there should be about the same number of "those who aspire to be warriors" in the armed services. With a draft, there will be a lot more of the second group in the armed services -- ergo, the total number of active military personnel will be larger. And once they're in there, "convincing" is no longer relevant. Soldiers follow orders. If they're told to go to war, they go. They may not be enthusiastic about it, or efficient at it, but they have nothing to say about whether or not a war happens. That decision is made by the people at the top, who if anything should be more confident about going to war with a larger army. So it would seem to me that, all other factors being equal, a draft = a larger military = a greater chance of going to war. What am I missing?

And although we are currently at war (practically, if not officially) without a draft, there was no shortage of wars when we had a draft. In 34 years (1940-1973), we had three major wars -- WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, with only a few years of peace between them. The draft wasn't doing much to keep the peace back then.

You're assuming I support a large standing army of volunteers and conscripts.

I do not.

I do support a draft.

.....

If we need to raise an army, we draft the people needed to supplement the core of volunteers who served in peacetime.

We go off and fight the war.

Then when we're done, the draftees go home.


If you do not want to fight, we will find some other service like firefighting, paramedic or mortuary assistant.

....

It would also be a good idea for those that get drafted to go through a boot camp after high school.... Just to familiarize the possible draftees.

.....

It's even Constitutional.

OK. I still don't see how this does anything at all to make war less likely.
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09-08-2017, 05:02 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 03:55 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 03:47 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  You're assuming I support a large standing army of volunteers and conscripts.

I do not.

I do support a draft.

.....

If we need to raise an army, we draft the people needed to supplement the core of volunteers who served in peacetime.

We go off and fight the war.

Then when we're done, the draftees go home.


If you do not want to fight, we will find some other service like firefighting, paramedic or mortuary assistant.

....

It would also be a good idea for those that get drafted to go through a boot camp after high school.... Just to familiarize the possible draftees.

.....

It's even Constitutional.

OK. I still don't see how this does anything at all to make war less likely.

If you have a bigassed hammer in your toolbox, every problem looks like a nail.

If a President has a large standing army, (s)he is likely to think of using that army each time as problem crops up.

If (s)he had to go through all the contortions of drafting conscripts for his/her army, (s)he is very likely to look to other non-military options first.

A Commander in Chief should always be forced to consider public opinion, and the political fallout of using force.

GWB circumvented this by running a war with credit card funding, and by forcing the volunteers to stay past their commitments ( stop- loss). Absolutely unfair to those volunteers.

If the fucker had been forced to raise taxes to pay for the war and draft an army ( as per the Constitution) the middle East incursion would have been much shorter, or not even happened at all.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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09-08-2017, 06:18 PM
RE: Drafting and War
Over 400,000 American men learned to read after being drafted in WWII. Just a side benefit for society as a whole.
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10-08-2017, 12:06 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(09-08-2017 06:18 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  Over 400,000 American men learned to read after being drafted in WWII. Just a side benefit for society as a whole.

Well jeez, there's your education, health, poverty and all sorts of other social problems solved in one go. Survival of the fittest, Vietnam style.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-08-2017, 01:45 AM
RE: Drafting and War
And don't forget women's rights Big Grin

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