Drafting and War
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11-08-2017, 09:02 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(10-08-2017 05:04 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(10-08-2017 08:07 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  (2) They need a job and military service is the only job they can get. This depends entirely on the economy, and has nothing to do with a draft.
Pretty much the top reason.

Recruiting is great in poor communities.

I wasn't poor, but I knew I'd never get money for college from any source other than the Navy. I wound up spending 14 years at Purdue.* Thank you taxpayers.




*Two bachelors, one Masters. Limited to 3/4 time by the docs.
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11-08-2017, 09:28 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(11-08-2017 09:00 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(10-08-2017 12:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  Well jeez, there's your education, health, poverty and all sorts of other social problems solved in one go. Survival of the fittest, Vietnam style.

Are you constantly over the top?

Is that all the refutation you can muster? It makes sense even. You know. We've got too many poor people - let's send 'em to a meat-grinder at government expense Smile We'll tax 'em to make them pay their own way over even. Or if they're too poor we'll send 'em for free. Never say Uncle Sam is unfair or doesn't provide welfare. Looking after the citizens of the USA like always.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-08-2017, 06:29 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(11-08-2017 09:02 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(10-08-2017 05:04 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Pretty much the top reason.

Recruiting is great in poor communities.

I wasn't poor, but I knew I'd never get money for college from any source other than the Navy. I wound up spending 14 years at Purdue.* Thank you taxpayers.

And thanks to that, here you are.

You're welcome. Smile

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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11-08-2017, 11:10 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(11-08-2017 08:58 AM)SYZ Wrote:  There's so much factually wrong with your comments I don't have the time to refute them.
Refute? I'm sorry but are you trying to be funny SYZ? You couldn't even name one and you want to talk about refuting them? You, who couldn't even be bothered to support your own position is gonna pretend like you could refute mine? I'm legitimately amazed no one has called you on this childish nonsense before now, I really really am.

One of my primary criticisms of your last post is that you gave nothing at all past opinion and assertions which lacked any kind of support or justification, either philosophical, historical, or moral. Yet your response to that criticism is........more unsupported assertion? Have you EVER seen me put up with that kinda nonsense from anyone on this forum?

I'm pulling from multiple sources to support my position including, but not limited to :
Falling in: Australians and 'boy conscription’, 1911–1915 by John Barrett.
The Wobblies at War: A History of the IWW and the Great War in Australia by Frank Cain.
Events That Shaped Australia by W. Lewis; S. Balderstone and J. Bowan.
The Torch and the Sword: A History of the Army Cadet Movement in Australia by Craig Stockings.
As well as multiple publications and articles pulled directly from the National Archives of Australia website itself.

(11-08-2017 08:58 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Sorry.
Rolleyes
Not that you'll care but your juvenile attempt at a sarcastic apology, in place of an actual argument I might add, is rejected on the grounds that I see no reason to excuse someone for being evasive, intellectually dishonest, and abjectly lazy in the defense of their own position. You know I don't put up with that kind of bullshit and I'm not gonna start now.

(11-08-2017 08:58 AM)SYZ Wrote:  And you've willfully misrepresented other things—such as young school cadets being forced at "the barrel of a gun" to undertake compulsory military training.
You wanna talk misrepresenting? No where in my post did I single out, or even make mention of, "school cadets" as you call them, a phrase misleading in it's own right by the way. You are welcome to Ctrl+F it if you like.

What I did talk about was the government passing laws that included in the "compulsory enrollment" for boys as young as 12 to receive "military" style training. It was called a cadet system, but attendance was mandatory and if you didn't show the government would use force and prosecute you. Trying to insinuate that they were just "school cadets" and that attendance was not mandatory under the threat of prosecution is dishonest.
There was widespread opposition to this compulsory training to the point of over 34,000 prosecutions and over 7,000 detentions all of which were enforced by force or the threat of force.

It's a very simple matter in the end. If I, as a boy of 12, refused to comply with this conscription the government would use force on me or my parents to force me to comply. Force SYZ, that was carried out by people with weapons. You can not like the phrasing I used but it's not inaccurate, so your objection is not relevant.

The mandatory service provisions of the Defence Act that allowed for this were dropped in less than 2 decades for many reasons but among those reasons were arguments that it was morally wrong. That argument won out in the end and boyhood conscription stopped in 1929.

Your own countrymen and ancestors agreed, in the end, that it was an immoral system and got rid of it for good.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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12-08-2017, 05:40 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(11-08-2017 11:10 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(11-08-2017 08:58 AM)SYZ Wrote:  There's so much factually wrong with your comments I don't have the time to refute them.
Refute? I'm sorry but are you trying to be funny SYZ? You couldn't even name one and you want to talk about refuting them? You, who couldn't even be bothered to support your own position is gonna pretend like you could refute mine? I'm legitimately amazed no one has called you on this childish nonsense before now, I really really am...

LOL... then you're obviously easily amazed aren't you mate? BTW, I happen to live in Australia, and I was in the ADF here, so I don't have to rely on Wikipedia for my facts; I know my stuff first hand. Sorry.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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12-08-2017, 10:36 AM
RE: Drafting and War
Third time now after being criticized for presenting nothing by assertion and opinion that you respond with nothing but assertion and opinion. Lucky me.
(12-08-2017 05:40 AM)SYZ Wrote:  LOL... then you're obviously easily amazed aren't you mate?
By your inability to defend your position with anything approaching a cogent and supported thought? Less and less mate, less and less. Drinking Beverage

(12-08-2017 05:40 AM)SYZ Wrote:  BTW, I happen to live in Australia
I know that.....that's why I kept referring to it as "your" country, however, that doesn't magically make you an expert on your countries history of conscription, especially not the point where you can plug your ears and ignore actual facts, actual arguments, and actual scholarship.

(12-08-2017 05:40 AM)SYZ Wrote:  and I was in the ADF here
Were you in the ADF during World War 1 when boyhood conscription was a thing? I some how doubt it. Same problem as before too, being a member of the ADF doesn't magically make you an expert on conscription policy and enforcement from over a century ago, and especially not to the point you get to ignore facts and data.

I've supported my argument with demonstrable evidence and multiple scholarly sources and you......have stamped your feet like a petulant child. You can disagree with my opinion, hell you can disagree with my conclusions, but you don't get to do it though bullshit assertions and logical fallacies.

(12-08-2017 05:40 AM)SYZ Wrote:  so I don't have to rely on Wikipedia for my facts;
A.) One would think it outta be really easy to refute those facts than shouldn't it? Drinking Beverage
B.) Neither do I, which is why I gave links to the actual material I was using instead of Wikipedia, though I have used links to Wikipedia in the past just fine. A huge part of Torch and Sword was free to read online, including the parts relevant to my argument, so was the National Archives of Australia, and there are multiple summaries and analyses of the other books online as well.
C.) What facts are those again? Only one of us has presented any facts whatsoever and it's not you, so talk of "your facts" is ...slightly premature. To say the least.
D.) Well, I'm sorry that you think presenting your unsourced, clearly unresearched, opinions are somehow more useful than multiple confirmed sources and decades worth of scholarly research.
E.) It's hardly my fault that a simple google search to offer a better grasp of this subject than you seem to have.

(12-08-2017 05:40 AM)SYZ Wrote:  I know my stuff first hand.
Oh yeah? Have you first-hand knowledge of a conscription system from the days of WW1? Oen that has not existed there since 1929?Uh-huh, lol. Hey if you know your stuff first hand why don't you.. bloody well demonstrate it? 'Cause it doesn't seem that you do.

(12-08-2017 05:40 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Sorry.
Heh. I'm gonna be as polite as you deserve and tell you to fuck off and find your goddamn balls SYZ. You have had multiple opportunities to back your position up and you continue, and now flagrantly, refuse to do so deciding to act like a belligerent ass instead. I've been exceedingly patient with you, far more than I would if anyone pulled your bullshit in a religious debate, even going so far as to offer additional support to my argument and more sources, an argument you have only countered with assertions and personal opinions.

If you have time to post you have time to post something fuckin' useful.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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13-08-2017, 09:48 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(12-08-2017 10:36 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  If you have time to post you have time to post something fuckin' useful.

Whoa matey... we have an angry young man here LOL.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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13-08-2017, 03:47 PM (This post was last modified: 13-08-2017 03:52 PM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: Drafting and War
(13-08-2017 09:48 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 10:36 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  If you have time to post you have time to post something fuckin' useful.

Whoa matey... we have an angry young man here LOL.

Oh noes I said the f word I must be angry! That's not an argument I've had to hear from every religious person on this forum. Rolleyes

I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong with telling you to actually contribute something to the conversation instead of being a biligerant, dishonest, and evasive cunt.

Hope the ADF taught you to defend a geographical position better than you defend a philosophical one. Drinking Beverage

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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13-08-2017, 04:18 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(11-08-2017 09:02 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  I wasn't poor, but I knew I'd never get money for college from any source other than the Navy. I wound up spending 14 years at Purdue.* Thank you taxpayers.

So you still were forced into serving by necessity, because you couldn't have hoped to get a degree otherwise. In that sense you were sufficiently poor to see that as you only option short of indebting yourself.

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13-08-2017, 05:04 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(13-08-2017 04:18 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(11-08-2017 09:02 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  I wasn't poor, but I knew I'd never get money for college from any source other than the Navy. I wound up spending 14 years at Purdue.* Thank you taxpayers.

So you still were forced into serving by necessity, because you couldn't have hoped to get a degree otherwise. In that sense you were sufficiently poor to see that as you only option short of indebting yourself.

So??

You think being poor is supposed to be unicorns farting rainbows???

It's supposed to suck to be poor...


It gives a person incentive to not be poor...

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The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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