Drafting and War
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03-08-2017, 04:36 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 04:35 PM)TSG Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 04:33 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  What freedoms? They say we have freedoms, but I don't hardly see it, the list just keeps getting shorter and shorter.

Consider Does this help?




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03-08-2017, 04:45 PM
RE: Drafting and War
A draft is fundamentally a violation of the innate right to self-determination. It is immoral to force a man, at the barrel of a gun, to take up arms and kill men he does not know and to which he has no personal grievance. Not to come off as hyperbolic but it's involuntary servitude and we have a name for that.

As for in times of emergency only well...the people drafting you are generally the same ones deciding if it's an emergency or not and under those conditions you would be surprised who quickly they will label something an "emergency".

If a conflict is so widely unpopular that you can't get a fraction of the forces you need to maintain operational viability you probably shouldn't be fighting that conflict in the first place. WW1 was so unpopular among the American people that during the first 6 weeks of recruitment only 73,000 of the anticipated 1,000,000 recruits materialized. The government responded with not only a draft but a massive pro-war/pro-draft propaganda campaign as well as massive attacks on free speech by shutting down newspapers and magazines that were critical of the war. the draft also targeted the poor and blacks disproportionately. Opps.

So not exactly great for individual liberty or "Democracy".

If the people view the conflict as morally just (WW2)or that the nation is in danger a draft generally is not needed, a draft is almost always used to drag people into unpopular wars, frequently that the nation has no business fighting.

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03-08-2017, 04:53 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 01:36 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  My step dad was going on about Trump possible starting a war and some of us getting drafted. Like that was the best thing that could happen. He's a military guy, while I am happy that his military service, which he wanted to do, got me into college. I have put my foot down over and over and said. "I don't want to be in the military. I refuse to fight in a war."

I like the freedoms with... somewhat have. But Drafting is one thing I'm like, "Doesn't that violate freedom of any kind? We call ourselves a free country, but we are nothing but cattle to the slaughter for an over the top military.

I don't want any blatant lie 'Hero's Death' for being in the military. Especially if I didn't want to be there in the first damn place. Like I said, we should have a choice, and when I read about drafting in the Vietnam War, I thought that it was against the supposed freedoms we have/had.

People shouldn't be forced to fight. And I swear Trump is going to start a meaningless war and the poor/middle class pay for it with their lives. I get some wars are a need, WW1 and WW2 are one of those, but a war just because of oil reserves that the US wants? Or just because Russia refuses to bend to the US's will? And we decide to poke North Korea a bit more just to start a fucking war.

It makes me scared to know that I will have no say if that does happen and will be fore to die for a man who's ego is bigger than mount Everest. But at least On my grave I can have the last say of 'Died because country is stupid.' or something like that.

What's worse about this, my damn Republican family is all fucking for drafting. Like being in the military is the best god given thing you can do. I just want to yell at them at times and say, "I am not fighting for a country that doesn't give two shits, or even a shit, about me!"

They'll take away our freedoms as soon as their is a bit of evidence against you. You have no right, you have no freedoms.
"You have owners, they own you." - George Carlin.

Why are you worried? There won't be any draft. The American people are too soft and won't stand for that sort of demand for duty from the country they live in. They'll close their Facebook window just long enough to visit their senator's website, complain about this SSS thing, and then get back to shitposting.

Take a deep breath, and relax.
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03-08-2017, 05:08 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 04:45 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  A draft is fundamentally a violation of the innate right to self-determination. It is immoral to force a man, at the barrel of a gun, to take up arms and kill men he does not know and to which he has no personal grievance. Not to come off as hyperbolic but it's involuntary servitude and we have a name for that.
Is that word..... Involuntary servitude? Angel

Slaves are not paid, can be bought and sold, are treated as property instead of humans, have no set term of service, and don't get medals for valor. The draft is also not at the barrel of a gun, although you can go to jail for failing to follow through. So.... Yeah, a bit hyperbolic there.

Self-determination is a nice ideal, but outside of a state of nature, it always has its limits. And things like taxes and conscription are the limits that people have to contend with in order to maintain what in most other respects is a reasonably self-deterministic society.

Quote:As for in times of emergency only well...the people drafting you are generally the same ones deciding if it's an emergency or not and under those conditions you would be surprised who quickly they will label something an "emergency".

And that's a legitimate problem with conscription, as with many other parts of a government: what's an emergency? We can usually recognize one when we see it, but it's admittedly hard to define it. It also doesn't help when the government has a financial and political interest in having long-lasting emergencies. Nevertheless, emergencies do happen, and sometimes



Quote:If a conflict is so widely unpopular that you can't get a fraction of the forces you need to maintain operational viability you probably shouldn't be fighting that conflict in the first place. WW1 was so unpopular among the American people that during the first 6 weeks of recruitment only 73,000 of the anticipated 1,000,000 recruits materialized. The government responded with not only a draft but a massive pro-war/pro-draft propaganda campaign as well as massive attacks on free speech by shutting down newspapers and magazines that were critical of the war. the draft also targeted the poor and blacks disproportionately. Opps.

I think we can all agree that WWI was pure stupid. Weeping Wilson was elected because "he kept us out of war," and the draft was perhaps a bit too hawkish.

Nevertheless, there was that whole German-Mexican telegraph debacle which indicated a direct threat to American security, and it turned out that American action in the war shortened it significantly and saved who knows how many lives. I also wholeheartedly disagree with any and all crackdowns on free speech, including in this instance.

Quote:So not exactly great for individual liberty or "Democracy".

If the people view the conflict as morally just (WW2)or that the nation is in danger a draft generally is not needed, a draft is almost always used to drag people into unpopular wars, frequently that the nation has no business fighting.
Jury duty sucks for individual liberty too, but at the end of the day a nation isn't a bunch of individuals who happen to live near each other, it's a social contract which binds every citizen together for the purpose of perpetuating said nation, and defending it from harm.

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03-08-2017, 06:13 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 05:08 PM)TSG Wrote:  Nevertheless, there was that whole German-Mexican telegraph debacle which indicated a direct threat to American security...

Sorry for being snarky but...if I ever get drafted and killed for something like the Zimmerman Telegram I'm suing somebody.

(03-08-2017 05:08 PM)TSG Wrote:  So.... Yeah, a bit hyperbolic there.

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03-08-2017, 06:20 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 06:13 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 05:08 PM)TSG Wrote:  Nevertheless, there was that whole German-Mexican telegraph debacle which indicated a direct threat to American security...

Sorry for being snarky but...if I ever get drafted and killed for something like the Zimmerman Telegram I'm suing somebody.

(03-08-2017 05:08 PM)TSG Wrote:  So.... Yeah, a bit hyperbolic there.

What's wrong with the Zimmerman Telegram?

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03-08-2017, 06:21 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 01:36 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  My step dad was going on about Trump possible starting a war and some of us getting drafted. Like that was the best thing that could happen. He's a military guy, while I am happy that his military service, which he wanted to do, got me into college. I have put my foot down over and over and said. "I don't want to be in the military. I refuse to fight in a war."

I like the freedoms with... somewhat have. But Drafting is one thing I'm like, "Doesn't that violate freedom of any kind? We call ourselves a free country, but we are nothing but cattle to the slaughter for an over the top military.

I don't want any blatant lie 'Hero's Death' for being in the military. Especially if I didn't want to be there in the first damn place. Like I said, we should have a choice, and when I read about drafting in the Vietnam War, I thought that it was against the supposed freedoms we have/had.

People shouldn't be forced to fight. And I swear Trump is going to start a meaningless war and the poor/middle class pay for it with their lives. I get some wars are a need, WW1 and WW2 are one of those, but a war just because of oil reserves that the US wants? Or just because Russia refuses to bend to the US's will? And we decide to poke North Korea a bit more just to start a fucking war.

It makes me scared to know that I will have no say if that does happen and will be fore to die for a man who's ego is bigger than mount Everest. But at least On my grave I can have the last say of 'Died because country is stupid.' or something like that.

What's worse about this, my damn Republican family is all fucking for drafting. Like being in the military is the best god given thing you can do. I just want to yell at them at times and say, "I am not fighting for a country that doesn't give two shits, or even a shit, about me!"

They'll take away our freedoms as soon as their is a bit of evidence against you. You have no right, you have no freedoms.
"You have owners, they own you." - George Carlin.

> Ask your dad what Trump was doing during the Vietnam War when young men like me were being drafted and sent to their deaths. Consider

> Rich man's war; poor man's fight. Some things never change.
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03-08-2017, 06:24 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 06:20 PM)TSG Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 06:13 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Sorry for being snarky but...if I ever get drafted and killed for something like the Zimmerman Telegram I'm suing somebody.

What's wrong with the Zimmerman Telegram?

It wasn't a direct threat to American security, or probably an indirect threat either.

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03-08-2017, 06:31 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 06:24 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 06:20 PM)TSG Wrote:  What's wrong with the Zimmerman Telegram?

It wasn't a direct threat to American security, or probably an indirect threat either.

In the middle of a world war, if a side against whom your nation is disposed offers to assist a foreign power in (re)annexing your territory, you freak out a bit. Although I admit it was a pretty silly idea on Germany's part.

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03-08-2017, 06:45 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 06:31 PM)TSG Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 06:24 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  It wasn't a direct threat to American security, or probably an indirect threat either.

In the middle of a world war, if a side against whom your nation is disposed offers to assist a foreign power in (re)annexing your territory, you freak out a bit. Although I admit it was a pretty silly idea on Germany's part.

Agreed.

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