Drafting and War
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03-08-2017, 08:05 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 01:36 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  What's worse about this, my damn Republican family is all fucking for drafting.

It's funny how many people are gung-ho pro draft, so long as they aren't in any danger of being drafted themselves.

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Dr H

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03-08-2017, 08:07 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 01:49 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Do you like your freedoms?

If you think that freedom is free, you're sadly mistaken.

They come with a price tag.

Somebody has to pay.

Should they step up and volunteer to pay?

Or should they be forced to pay?

If they're forced, then how are they "free"?

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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03-08-2017, 08:13 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 04:35 PM)TSG Wrote:  Consider Does this help?

LOL. Let's see:

The right to have your income taxed (16)

The right to be prohibited from consuming alcohol (18)

The right to have my congressman wait until the next election (a whole two years, tops) before he votes himself yet another pay raise that comes out of my pocket ( and I probably didn't even vote for him).(27)


Nice concept, I guess.
Needs work.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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03-08-2017, 08:19 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 04:45 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  A draft is fundamentally a violation of the innate right to self-determination. It is immoral to force a man, at the barrel of a gun, to take up arms and kill men he does not know and to which he has no personal grievance. Not to come off as hyperbolic but it's involuntary servitude and we have a name for that.

As for in times of emergency only well...the people drafting you are generally the same ones deciding if it's an emergency or not and under those conditions you would be surprised who quickly they will label something an "emergency".

If a conflict is so widely unpopular that you can't get a fraction of the forces you need to maintain operational viability you probably shouldn't be fighting that conflict in the first place. WW1 was so unpopular among the American people that during the first 6 weeks of recruitment only 73,000 of the anticipated 1,000,000 recruits materialized.

National conscription wasn't real popular the first time it was invoked, either.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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03-08-2017, 08:25 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 05:08 PM)TSG Wrote:  The draft is also not at the barrel of a gun, although you can go to jail for failing to follow through. So.... Yeah, a bit hyperbolic there.
If you get called to report, and you fail to report, the FBI will come to arrest you.
FBI agents generally carry guns.

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03-08-2017, 08:32 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 01:40 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  Pretty sad your step-father wants young men and women to die.

They don't draft women. Women don't have to sign up for Selective Service, or lose access to Federal grants and loans. They only want the men to die.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-08-2017, 08:48 PM
RE: Drafting and War
The draft democratizes a wartime fighting force.
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03-08-2017, 08:49 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 08:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 01:40 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  Pretty sad your step-father wants young men and women to die.

They don't draft women. Women don't have to sign up for Selective Service, or lose access to Federal grants and loans. They only want the men to die.

I found a clever way to avoid getting drafted, I volunteered. My draft number for the first year I was eligible was 271. The VC would have had to have been attacking Bakersfield before I would have been drafted.
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03-08-2017, 08:50 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 08:48 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  The draft democratizes a wartime fighting force.

Unless daddy buys you a deferment.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-08-2017, 09:09 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2017 09:19 PM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 05:08 PM)TSG Wrote:  Slaves are not paid, can be bought and sold, are treated as property instead of humans, have no set term of service, and don't get medals for valor.
Actually, slaves throughout history were frequently paid, shittily, with many able to buy their freedom. While this was not the norm, payment or lack there of, is not a defining feature of slavery. Several forms of slavery did, in fact, have set terms of service (Biblical Jews enslaving Jews as one example), and the notion that rewarding someone for exemplary service has anything to do with who is or is not a slave is nonsensical.
Slaves in ancient Rome could file complaints against their masters, masters that unjustly killed a slave could be tried for homicide and many other legal protections. Just cause it's not the pre-civil war American system does not mean it's not slavery.

There is also the fact that moral and political philosophers have struggled with the delineation between slave and free man for most of human history. When does a slave stop being a slave, and so on. But now I'm getting far too esoteric for this conversation haha

(03-08-2017 05:08 PM)TSG Wrote:  The draft is also not at the barrel of a gun, although you can go to jail for failing to follow through.
Or murdered as was the case for multiple people during WW1 who refused to submit to the draft and were executed. That aside and as to your actual objection, yes it is at the barrel of a gun because that's how the enforcement side of the law works. If I am found to be in violation of the law than a duly appointed representative of the law will be dispatched to ensure my compliance with the law of the land up to and including the use of deadly force, depending on the circumstance.
Now that's not an evil thing, nor am I one of those idiots who try to argue that laws don't apply to them or that all use of force is evil. It's about intent and application largely and in my opinion using force, or the threat of force, to compel a person (disproportionately the poor and minorities) to act against a) his own best interest or b) a justifiable morality or c) as a means to facilitate violence against a person for which that man has no personal grievance is intrinsically unethical and evil.

(03-08-2017 05:08 PM)TSG Wrote:  Self-determination is a nice ideal, but outside of a state of nature, it always has its limits.
Self-determination is not a "nice ideal" it is literally the cornerstone of all human rights. Are you the steward of your own ship, the master of your own destiny, or are you not?

(03-08-2017 05:08 PM)TSG Wrote:  And things like taxes and conscription are the limits that people have to contend with in order to maintain what in most other respects is a reasonably self-deterministic society.
I'll agree to the taxes but I will not agree to the role of conscription as you present it simply because it's historically not factual. The draft, primarily at the behest of the federal government, has been so universally reviled in US history (so much so that the New York City Draft Riots were the "largest civil and racial insurrection in American history, aside from the Civil War itself." ) that only after a full blown propaganda campaign and silencing of dissenting opinions did it ever received any kind of acceptance and that was short lived.

(03-08-2017 05:08 PM)TSG Wrote:  Nevertheless, emergencies do happen, and sometimes

A worldview that when taken out of the context for which Mr. Spock is speaking and applying it at the political level has been used as justification for some of the worst atrocities and human rights violations in history. Is there an example you can provide of a situation in which the US, as it existed at the time, could only preserve its sovereignty via a national draft? Because I can point to many times where it's been used, again disproportionally on the poor and minorities, on expansionist wars against nations that pose no threat tot he country at all.

Also because I'm a cheeky cunt, I'll point out that no one forced Spock to do that he volunteered. TongueTongue

(03-08-2017 05:08 PM)TSG Wrote:  Nevertheless, there was that whole German-Mexican telegraph debacle which indicated a direct threat to American security...
..in the prior event that America joined the war which was unlikely to happen prior to the telegraph and a threat that did not materialize when the war was actually joined. This was what I was talking about when is said that government will invent emergencies, and if we can strip people of their basic right to self-determination over the rumour of possible future emergencies then it's not a power the government should have. And if Mexico attacking the US was a credible threat (it wasn't) it does not make a lot of sense to draft people into the military .....and then send them to the other continent. The Us has also been actively engaged in warfare with Mexico in the past I did not require a draft.

EDIT:
I highly recommend the book Emancipating Slaves, Enslaving Free Men: A History of the American Civil War by Jeffrey Rogers Hummel for a contemporary view of just how immoral the draft was considered during the Civil War. It's also just a really good book.

Also cause I don't plug him enough and he is hugely important to American history despite being almost universally unknown in the modern age the book The Unconstitutionality of Slavery by the great Lysander Spooner. A book that had a HUGE impact on the thinking of the day but no one today knows about. No joke this book is single handedly responsible for reducing Southern justification for slavery to just the Bible.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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