Drafting and War
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03-08-2017, 09:26 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 06:31 PM)TSG Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 06:24 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  It wasn't a direct threat to American security, or probably an indirect threat either.

In the middle of a world war, if a side against whom your nation is disposed offers to assist a foreign power in (re)annexing your territory, you freak out a bit. Although I admit it was a pretty silly idea on Germany's part.

... not to mention that the Germans were already sinking American merchantmen on the high seas.

Speaking as a veteran, I dislike the idea of conscription, and mostly from a purely practical standpoint. Volunteers fight better than conscripts. They have more motivation and less resentment.

But if'n I were President and found out another country was plotting against my own, they'd get a little what-for, especially after they'd sunk some of my ships and killed some of my people. Mess with the bull, get the horns.

Not much to do with the issue of the draft. Just an opinion, and worth every penny you've paid for it.
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03-08-2017, 09:43 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 01:49 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Do you like your freedoms?

If you think that freedom is free, you're sadly mistaken.

They come with a price tag.

Somebody has to pay.

I loved mine enough to volunteer, but I don't look down on those who didn't, and I sure as shit don't like serving alongside the disenchanted. Even though I served post-draft, there were enough guys in the outfit who enlisted for having nowhere else to go, and I'll tell you, the thought of fighting fire with some of them was not a comfort.

Some folks ain't cut out to serve. They are the ones who as an oversight leave a bolt in a jet-engine intake, don't work the valves right on a firetruck, show up for reveille but never learn the fucking job.

Last I checked, it was an army of conscripts that got pushed out of Vietnam. Before you go all one-hand-tied-behind-their-back on me, hear me out: these draftees, subjected to military discipline for the first time, poorly led as they were, how could anyone expect anything other than defeat? Look at WWI. Both sides fielded conscript armies, and what happened?

Conscription saps motivation. Sure, some dig into the job, but when I was fighting fire, I was happy knowing that most of the guys around me wanted to be there.
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03-08-2017, 09:47 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 03:14 PM)yakherder Wrote:  There are so many people wanting to deploy right now I can't imagine a draft happening anyway.

I volunteered for everything. That's how you earn your stripes.

But I sure as hell don't want Sad Sack next to me when the building's burning down ... much less when a firefight erupts.
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03-08-2017, 09:51 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 09:43 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Look at WWI. Both sides fielded conscript armies, and what happened?

Oh man, and it was made so much worse by the fact military doctrine and tactics had not evolved to the kind of fighting they saw. Just throwing bodies into the churn.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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03-08-2017, 09:56 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 08:48 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  The draft democratizes a wartime fighting force.

At what cost?

It's a fair point you lay, but it's also a bit simplistic, because the mission is not spreading the pain, but winning the war.
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03-08-2017, 09:59 PM
RE: Drafting and War
The original "All Quiet on the Western Front" movie...1920s I guess?...has some amazingly stomach-turning battle scenes considering when it was made.
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03-08-2017, 10:03 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 09:56 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 08:48 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  The draft democratizes a wartime fighting force.

At what cost?

It's a fair point you lay, but it's also a bit simplistic, because the mission is not spreading the pain, but winning the war.

It might help keep us out of one of the damn things...but only if it's a REAL draft with everyone- ladies too- sharing in at least the risk of getting called. To be a Vietnam war draftee, knowing the rich and well-connected got student deferments or otherwise manipulated their way out...must have been like poison.
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03-08-2017, 10:08 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 09:51 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 09:43 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Look at WWI. Both sides fielded conscript armies, and what happened?

Oh man, and it was made so much worse by the fact military doctrine and tactics had not evolved to the kind of fighting they saw. Just throwing bodies into the churn.

Y'know? Guys who'd done six months or a year as draftees, then shunted into the reserves, called up three years laters, rusty as all-get-out, and sent into Der Kindermorten or Passchendaele or Verdun.

Meat-grinders suck, especially when you're the cow.

Here in America, our modern volunteer military does great work -- poor leadership and politics aside. It's my opinion, and only an opinion, that that is because they weren't dragged into anything. Most of them are motivated, smart, and capable.
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03-08-2017, 10:10 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 09:59 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  The original "All Quiet on the Western Front" movie...1920s I guess?...has some amazingly stomach-turning battle scenes considering when it was made.

I've never seen the movie, but the book speaks to the real loyalties of fighting men -- loyal to the guys in your unit, and fuck everyone who gets in the way. 'Tis truth.
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03-08-2017, 10:18 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 10:03 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 09:56 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  At what cost?

It's a fair point you lay, but it's also a bit simplistic, because the mission is not spreading the pain, but winning the war.

It might help keep us out of one of the damn things...but only if it's a REAL draft with everyone- ladies too- sharing in at least the risk of getting called. To be a Vietnam war draftee, knowing the rich and well-connected got student deferments or otherwise manipulated their way out...must have been like poison.

That's the thing. Without exemptions, the draft can and does spread the pain through society at large, meaning that each family shoulders less. But exemptions are always going to happen, because you don't want to send an Einstein to the front with a .303. You want him designing your next weapon.

And that means uni deferments will happen. Period. Resource allocation, and all that. And because in a stratified society access to universities is class-based, that means that conscription necessarily is inegalitarian ... just the same as a volunteer army is. Sad fact.
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