Drafting and War
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04-08-2017, 09:27 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 08:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 08:48 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  The draft democratizes a wartime fighting force.

Unless daddy buys you a deferment.

Some folks will get over in any system. The English used the press gang, which grabbed random warm bodies from areas where the families couldn't protest with any effect.
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04-08-2017, 09:29 AM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2017 09:35 AM by Gawdzilla.)
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 09:56 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 08:48 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  The draft democratizes a wartime fighting force.

At what cost?

It's a fair point you lay, but it's also a bit simplistic, because the mission is not spreading the pain, but winning the war.

It does more than that, it invests people in the success of the country. I could go on for six hundred and nineteen pages but copyright laws...
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04-08-2017, 09:34 AM
RE: Drafting and War
In 1943 the US military stopped accepting volunteers because too many of them were men who had trades or skills that were needed in the war industries. The social stigma of "why aren't you in uniform?" was thus lifted. Local boards selected men to call up based on the impact their change of jobs would have on the war production. There were certain exceptions, especially in the SEABEE and "pioneer" jobs that needed experienced men immediately and there was no time to train them up. The National Research Labs, Ordnance facilities, etc., also needed such men.
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04-08-2017, 09:36 AM
RE: Drafting and War
And one final thing the WWII draft boards did, they weeded out people who really shouldn't have a gun.
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04-08-2017, 10:34 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(04-08-2017 09:36 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  And one final thing the WWII draft boards did, they weeded out people who really shouldn't have a gun.

Yeah..

They might kill somebody..


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04-08-2017, 10:52 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(04-08-2017 02:27 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  ......don't think Spock was drafted mate, pretty sure he joined Starfleet voluntarily.

I wasn't talking about Spock joining StarFleet. I was referring to Spock stepping into the chamber; so did my client.

(04-08-2017 02:27 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  One of Spock's primary defining traits as a character was that he was half Vulcan half human and very frequently acted on emotion when a full Vulcan wouldn't have.

All the more reason to enter the chamber. Caring for his fellow colleagues.

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04-08-2017, 11:42 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 02:05 PM)epronovost Wrote:  In my opinion, military draft should only be legal when there is an imminent and credible military threat to the survival of the nation (and be authorised via a referendum if possible). In almost any armed conflict, the draft would be useless. there would be enough volunteers to conduct the war. Conscripts are notoriously considered as poor soldiers when they are used to figh far away from their nation. Thus, even the military shouldn't consider conscription as a good and useful tool. Fortunately, modern warfare rely less on fighting men and women numbers than it used to in the recent past.

I am totally opposed to using even regular military in a war that Trump launches to deflect from his domestic shortcomings.

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04-08-2017, 11:57 AM
RE: Drafting and War
(04-08-2017 10:52 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 02:27 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  ......don't think Spock was drafted mate, pretty sure he joined Starfleet voluntarily.

I wasn't talking about Spock joining StarFleet. I was referring to Spock stepping into the chamber; so did my client.

(04-08-2017 02:27 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  One of Spock's primary defining traits as a character was that he was half Vulcan half human and very frequently acted on emotion when a full Vulcan wouldn't have.

All the more reason to enter the chamber. Caring for his fellow colleagues.

What does any of this have to do with a draft?

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04-08-2017, 01:28 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(04-08-2017 08:38 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 07:35 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I'm on board with national service of some sort.

MD -- when I was in the service, I had to pay taxes. One does not replace the other.

I'm not getting OLB's point though. I pay taxes as a member of society to access the benefits of society, including the protection of the armed forces. I don't want to be a member of the armed forces, if someone else does good luck to them. I don't see why I should be conscripted if I don't want to fight? Especially when most of the wars that I've ever read about have been stupid wars for unjust reasons. If I fight it will be for a cause that I believe in.

I understand. And I'm against conscription precisely because unmotivated or resentful men generally make poor soldiers. I wasn't defending his position on the draft, but rather pointing out that if taxes are a substitute for service, then ought not the corollary be that servicemembers not pay taxes during their enlistment? Sweat equity, I guess, is the term.

(04-08-2017 08:38 AM)morondog Wrote:  ETA: And as for substituting it with other forms of service, again, why? I am happy to do my bit by paying my taxes, why am I required to do some meaningless national service as well? If it is offered as an option, sure, I might even take that option. But if I'm not given an option, ya know, fuck that.

Well, I wouldn't call those other forms "meaningless". And some of them, such as firefighting, are absolutely necessary. I suppose one benefit I got from my enlistment was the idea of serving something larger than myself -- in my case, my fellow firefighters. That was a good learning experience for me, and I think would address a huge problem we have here in America -- self-absorption.
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04-08-2017, 01:32 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(04-08-2017 09:29 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 09:56 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  At what cost?

It's a fair point you lay, but it's also a bit simplistic, because the mission is not spreading the pain, but winning the war.

It does more than that, it invests people in the success of the country. I could go on for six hundred and nineteen pages but copyright laws...

And I agree (see my reply above to MD), to an extent. But I know and know of Vietnam-era draftees who came home bitter from being drafted for what was essentially a pawn's battle, which bitterness sapped their investment in the country's success. I'm not sure how the numbers play out over the population, though.
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