Drafting and War
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04-08-2017, 01:35 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(04-08-2017 09:27 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 08:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Unless daddy buys you a deferment.

Some folks will get over in any system. The English used the press gang, which grabbed random warm bodies from areas where the families couldn't protest with any effect.

The draft would be fine, if we were actually faced with a national emergency, and then women also can be drafted. There is no national emergency, and the way it's set up, is discriminatory. Deferments should also be eliminated.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-08-2017, 02:48 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 08:48 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  The draft democratizes a wartime fighting force.

How so, unless all voters are required to register?

Only 18-25 year old males are required to register.
No women.
No fit and energetic 26-40 year olds.

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04-08-2017, 03:04 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(04-08-2017 01:32 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 09:29 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  It does more than that, it invests people in the success of the country. I could go on for six hundred and nineteen pages but copyright laws...

And I agree (see my reply above to MD), to an extent. But I know and know of Vietnam-era draftees who came home bitter from being drafted for what was essentially a pawn's battle, which bitterness sapped their investment in the country's success. I'm not sure how the numbers play out over the population, though.
I enlisted three months before I graduated from high school in '69. I know of Vietnam-era draftees there still serving when I retired in '89.
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04-08-2017, 03:27 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(04-08-2017 01:28 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I understand. And I'm against conscription precisely because unmotivated or resentful men generally make poor soldiers. I wasn't defending his position on the draft, but rather pointing out that if taxes are a substitute for service, then ought not the corollary be that servicemembers not pay taxes during their enlistment? Sweat equity, I guess, is the term.
If you're getting paid to be in the military, then just like any job, you pay taxes. That seems relatively straightforward to me. My taxes are not a substitute for service, they are my fee for being a member of society, that I pay regardless of what job I do.

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(04-08-2017 08:38 AM)morondog Wrote:  ETA: And as for substituting it with other forms of service, again, why? I am happy to do my bit by paying my taxes, why am I required to do some meaningless national service as well? If it is offered as an option, sure, I might even take that option. But if I'm not given an option, ya know, fuck that.

Well, I wouldn't call those other forms "meaningless". And some of them, such as firefighting, are absolutely necessary. I suppose one benefit I got from my enlistment was the idea of serving something larger than myself -- in my case, my fellow firefighters. That was a good learning experience for me, and I think would address a huge problem we have here in America -- self-absorption.
I see it not as a meaningless job, maybe that was a poor choice of word. Rather I will say it is pointless. State sponsored firefighters and other such professions are something I can happily support. I will even feel proud that I support them through my taxes. I still don't want to be one.

The one benefit of national service that I can absolutely see is that it gives the unemployed youth something to do, teaches them a few skills and some cameraderie, and maybe they do something useful with their time as well. But still, I would hate to be part of such a scheme. Zim did have a scheme when I was leaving school, they talked about making it compulsory. It was a sort of "Mugabe youth" - so maybe that's also why I'm somewhat opposed to it. You've got to have a decent government that's not gonna make a bunch of obedient thugs before you can trust them with something like national service.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-08-2017, 03:40 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(03-08-2017 01:49 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Do you like your freedoms?

If you think that freedom is free, you're sadly mistaken.

They come with a price tag.

Somebody has to pay.

"Freedom costs a buck-oh-five....

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

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04-08-2017, 03:43 PM
RE: Drafting and War
Did you happen to mention to your step dad that the last thing the Pentagon wants is to return to a conscripted force? They enjoy not having to train people for 2 year stints and watch them leave.

I am of two minds about the draft. On the one hand an all-volunteer force is more efficient but it also establishes a We / Them divide between them and the rest of the citizenry. In that sense, a draft - if enforced equitably ( and in Vietnam there was the rub ) is the most democratic part of the military. The troops are not lifers. They are citizen soldiers. Right now we have about one half of one percent of the population who are taking all the risks as someone above pointed out.... although I don't think they are fighting for our freedom. I'll be damned if I know what they are fighting for but the only motherfuckers impacting our freedom are the scumbags in the Trump white house and the NSA.

On the other hand, the imposition of a draft - particularly in peacetime - does seem to be an over reach of government power.

So at this point I am undecided... except history tells us that in ancient Rome, c 105 BC a man named Gaius Marius implemented 'reforms' which converted the Roman Republic's citizen army to a professional force. They did, in fact, defeat the immediate threat but about 35 years later the first of the dictators, Lucius Cornelius Sulla, marched his army into Rome and took over. We are already beyond the 35 year window but there are other factors involved. But sooner or later the guys with the guns are going to figure things out. And it is usually not the troops but the officers who get the idea.

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04-08-2017, 03:46 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(04-08-2017 11:57 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 10:52 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  I wasn't talking about Spock joining StarFleet. I was referring to Spock stepping into the chamber; so did my client.


All the more reason to enter the chamber. Caring for his fellow colleagues.

What does any of this have to do with a draft?

You tell me.
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04-08-2017, 03:51 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2017 03:57 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Drafting and War
(04-08-2017 03:04 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 01:32 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  And I agree (see my reply above to MD), to an extent. But I know and know of Vietnam-era draftees who came home bitter from being drafted for what was essentially a pawn's battle, which bitterness sapped their investment in the country's success. I'm not sure how the numbers play out over the population, though.
I enlisted three months before I graduated from high school in '69. I know of Vietnam-era draftees there still serving when I retired in '89.

Good for them.
50,000+ of them died for nothing in Vietnam, only to have McNamara say 40 years later it was all a mistake. Never, ever, ever will I buy anything a general says. Ever.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-08-2017, 03:54 PM
RE: Drafting and War
I don't picture you in the military anyway.
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04-08-2017, 03:56 PM
RE: Drafting and War
(04-08-2017 03:54 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  I don't picture you in the military anyway.

Actually I was, sort of. I was in ROTC in high school. An officer.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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