Dreams and Life after Death?
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21-12-2014, 08:39 PM (This post was last modified: 21-12-2014 09:01 PM by Grasshopper.)
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(21-12-2014 08:35 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  The what it does and the how are the same exact question.

So watching a magician pull a rabbit out of a hat (or any of the other tricks magicians do) is exactly the same thing as knowing how he does it? Not to me.
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21-12-2014, 08:40 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(21-12-2014 08:17 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(21-12-2014 08:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  "Mass curves space" is good enough for me. Drinking Beverage

Right, but that is nothing more than a mathematical description of what it does, not how it does it. I mean, big object here causes another big object millions of miles away to move? How exactly does it do that? Can you even conceive of what it means for space to be curved? I can't. With a bit of study, I could work out the mathematics, but I have no intuitive understanding of it at all. Maybe that's just me, but I'm not convinced that anyone has an intuitive understanding of such things...

If you get right down to it; everything is a description of what something does, not how it does it. Continually asking "How?" is a combination of an argument from ignorance and reductio ad absurdum.

In any case: Why would something being intuitive matter to our understanding of it? Dimensionality is completely non-intuitive but we have an excellent understanding of how it works. Same with gravity the warping space/time.

(I've always found it useful to look at gravity as though an object was resting on a sheet of some kind. The force it exerts onto the sheet pulls other objects towards it by making them roll "downhill" to a more stable, less energetic, resting space.

It's a terrible metaphor; it adequately describes the "intuitive" visual elements but doesn't account for any of the more complex interactions. I don't have the best handle on stuff like this.)

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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21-12-2014, 08:52 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(21-12-2014 08:17 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(21-12-2014 08:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  "Mass curves space" is good enough for me. Drinking Beverage

Right, but that is nothing more than a mathematical description of what it does, not how it does it. I mean, big object here causes another big object millions of miles away to move? How exactly does it do that? Can you even conceive of what it means for space to be curved? I can't. With a bit of study, I could work out the mathematics, but I have no intuitive understanding of it at all. Maybe that's just me, but I'm not convinced that anyone has an intuitive understanding of such things...

It is a physical description - one object does not cause another to move, the curvature of space does.
I believe I have an understanding, at least by simile with lower dimension example.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-12-2014, 10:40 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
Everybody who isn't a moron probably already knows this shit; so it's probably redundant. This is just the first interesting thing The G-Man has posted and I'd like to capitalize on that while I'm still a little buzzed. (Which I failed at. Fell asleep while writing it up on my phone.)

(20-12-2014 10:57 PM)Gordon Wrote:  Here is an entry from Live Science about the mysteries of the mind. In this case, it's talking about memory.

Some experiences are hard to forget, like perhaps your first kiss. But how does a person hold onto these personal movies? Using brain-imaging techniques, scientists are unraveling the mechanism responsible for creating and storing memories. They are finding that the hippocampus, within the brain's gray matter, could act as a memory box. But this storage area isn't so discriminatory. It turns out that both true and false memories activate similar brain regions. To pull out the real memory, some researchers ask a subject to recall the memory in context, something that's much more difficult when the event didn't actually occur.

I see no need to actually include the two paragraphs where Gordi explained the problems with the bolded sections. He doesn't say anything enlightening: His case is entirely based on the language used and a more accurate interpretation of the terms is all that's necessary.

That's why this is a semantic argument.

Are unraveling: Implying that we are learning about the subject. It means nothing about the accuracy or volume of information we do have about it.

Could: Saying that something happened while stating a claim as a degree of certainty (this "almost certainly" happened, it "probably" happened) is just good diction. In science one avoids absolute claims. The lack of futher context shoots this in the foot; they could be describing information stored in clumps throughout the brain rather than being parsed out in a roughly equal degree. They could be saying that white matter isn't used for information storage.

They are saying that information storage could be done in the hippocampus grey matter specifically. So it says nothing on information stored elsewhere in the brain or the brain as a whole.

Both true and false memories activate similar brain regions: So something stored in the brain is retrieved from the brain in the same way as another similar thing stored in the brain. What's the problem here?

Quote:We don't know what began the universe.
We don't know what time is.
We don't know how gravity works.

We don't know what consciousness is or why the mind works the way it does.
We don't understand why animals have instincts.

We don't know how we remember things.

We don't understand how subatomic particles can be both waves and particles.

We don't know how observation collapses the wave function.

Point of order. We do know the bolded sections. The underlined ones have already been mentioned (Thank you Bucky and Shadow Fox) but not gone into in any detail. Hitting them in order:

(I'm fairly certain that we, as a species, know what time and gravity is. I've seen some fairly in depth explanations. I personally don't really understand it so I can't explain it to a degree I'd find satisfying. So I won't.)

-Consiousness is a chemical reaction that rises from the brain while certain conditions are met. We know this because altering somebodies brain chemistry changes their behaviour and how they percieve the world. Everything else; exactly where and how various pieces of information are stored and retrieved, how the brain reacts to various new conditions, the mechanism and function of some parts of the brain doesn't effect that conculsion.

-Because behaviour that is advantagious is at it's most profitable when directed by non-learnt behaviour. It's not complicated; a foal that is already wired with an instinctive understanding of how to stand will have an advantage at it's most vulnerable stage of development. That instinct is reinforced by it's observations of other horses and encouragement from it's mother; so the foal is moving before it's competitors.

The same is true with all instincts: Some spiders make webs. They do so instinctively due to three simple directives (create a foundation between two objects, build crossbraces between the outermost strands of web, connect the crossbraces) but their instincts are reinforced through practice. An instinct, as we see it, is genetics supported by learnt behaviour.

-A group of neurons is coded with a simple component of a concept/ idea (blue is between this and this, the eye sees this thing, it is blue, the sky is blue) and when stimulated by other neurons coded with contingent concepts a larger "picture" is reconstructed/ fabricated from it's encoded pieces to act as a memory.

-They're not. Subatomic particles are particles, they occupy a discrete amount of space, they are best modeled as occupying an area probabalistically (a "wave function") rather than it's absolute area. This is due to:

-The observer effect colapses the wave function due to our experimental methods. In order to measure the location or the velocity of a particle we strike it with other particles and measure the resultant change. (I understand that part is fairly simple trigonometry.) You colapse the wave function by reducing a particles velocity to zero, making impossible for the particle to rest anywhere within the wave function, except for the place where you now know the particle is.

Basically I knew where a golf ball was aproximately but I'm only able to be sure of exactly where it is by hitting it with a golf club.

Quote:Science, therefore, is at best a sub-god, unworthy of the worship atheists give to it.

I wish I could neg. rep. you again. I know it doesn't do anything and my scorn and derision isn't any more hurtful than the scorn and derision of everybody else. It's just cathartic and I'd be able to pillory your poopy face again.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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22-12-2014, 12:45 AM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(21-12-2014 08:17 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(21-12-2014 08:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  "Mass curves space" is good enough for me. Drinking Beverage

Right, but that is nothing more than a mathematical description of what it does, not how it does it. I mean, big object here causes another big object millions of miles away to move? How exactly does it do that? Can you even conceive of what it means for space to be curved? I can't. With a bit of study, I could work out the mathematics, but I have no intuitive understanding of it at all. Maybe that's just me, but I'm not convinced that anyone has an intuitive understanding of such things...

Another problem with the space curvature model is that it begs the question. The idea that a massive object bends space and thus a smaller object rolls toward it begs the question of what makes the smaller object fall down the slope toward the bigger object.

The fact is we don't understand how gravity works, which is what you said in an earlier response.
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22-12-2014, 12:49 AM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(21-12-2014 10:40 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  I wish I could neg. rep. you again. I know it doesn't do anything and my scorn and derision isn't any more hurtful than the scorn and derision of everybody else. It's just cathartic and I'd be able to pillory your poopy face again.

Scorn and derision, those are some pretty powerful emotions. Do you know what I feel about you?

...nothing. Crickets
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22-12-2014, 01:07 AM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
A) Derision isn't an emotion. It's a behaviour that's indicative of an emotion. (I was also using scorn as a verb which means it's also not an emotion but scorn is used to describe an emotional state so, sure. Whatever.)

B) That you don't value the opinions of people who you interact with is exactly the problem.

C) I wasn't expecting you to actually address the entire response, we'd all be foolish to expect intelectual honesty at this point but can you at least acknowledge that it exists?

D) You don't know what words mean: Chas isn't begging the question.

The argument is:
First premise: Objects move towards each other.
Second premise: This isn't a consequence of objects interacting with each other.
Conculsion: Objects are interacting with an intermediary. (Space time.)

It would only be begging the question if the conclusion were one of the premisies.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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22-12-2014, 01:22 AM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(22-12-2014 01:07 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  A) Derision isn't an emotion. It's a behaviour that's indicative of an emotion. (I was also using scorn as a verb which means it's also not an emotion but scorn is used to describe an emotional state so, sure. Whatever.)

B) That you don't value the opinions of people who you interact with is exactly the problem.

C) I wasn't expecting you to actually address the entire response, we'd all be foolish to expect intelectual honesty at this point but can you at least acknowledge that it exists?

D) You don't know what words mean: Chas isn't begging the question.

The argument is:
First premise: Objects move towards each other.
Second premise: This isn't a consequence of objects interacting with each other.
Conculsion: Objects are interacting with an intermediary. (Space time.)

It would only be begging the question if the conclusion were one of the premisies.

Gravity might as well be magic. It's an awful lot like it. In fact the whole universe is still almost as mysterious as it ever was to us. We might as well build another Stonehenge instead of another super-collider. Undecided

Oh, and as for not responding to your post. I didn't even read it. I always scan posts first for insults. If there's an insult, I usually don't read the post at all--especially some textbook-length blowhard post. Just sayin (When you're popular you can choose.)
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22-12-2014, 01:29 AM (This post was last modified: 22-12-2014 01:39 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(22-12-2014 01:22 AM)Gordon Wrote:  Just sayin (When you're popular you can choose.)

Said the the delusional fuckwad that's at -22. Facepalm
You seriously are separated from reality. That is called psychotic. This really is much more serious than I thought. This dude really IS seriously mentally unbalanced. Woah.

(22-12-2014 01:22 AM)Gordon Wrote:  Gravity might as well be magic. It's an awful lot like it. In fact the whole universe is still almost as mysterious as it ever was to us. We might as well build another Stonehenge instead of another super-collider.

Wrong idiot. It may be magic to ignorami such as YOU, but fortunately for us, YOU speak for no one other than yourself.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-12-2014, 01:48 AM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(22-12-2014 01:22 AM)Gordon Wrote:  Oh, and as for not responding to your post. I didn't even read it. I always scan posts first for insults. If there's an insult, I usually don't read the post at all--especially some textbook-length blowhard post. Just sayin (When you're popular you can choose.)

I, quite litterally, know ten year olds who have moved past this mentality. What the fuck is wrong with you?

(Ok. Yes. I only know two ten year olds more mature than Gordon. The point stands.)

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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