Dreams and Life after Death?
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22-12-2014, 12:55 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
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22-12-2014, 12:56 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
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22-12-2014, 12:57 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
The upside down dogs make a whole lot more sense than Gordon.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-12-2014, 12:59 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(22-12-2014 12:57 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  The upside down dogs make a whole lot more sense than Gordon.

I have a lot more in reserve.

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22-12-2014, 02:59 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(22-12-2014 10:03 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(22-12-2014 01:29 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Wrong idiot. It may be magic to ignorami such as YOU, but fortunately for us, YOU speak for no one other than yourself.

I disagree with most of what Gordon says, but this particular observation, while a bit hyperbolic, contains a grain of truth. Modern non-intuitive science (electromagnetic field theory, relativity, quantum mechanics) does have an air of magic about it. We can work out all the mathematical detail, and describe things and predict things with phenomenal accuracy, but we don't really understand the "inner workings" of any of it. How do electromagnetic waves propagate without a physical medium? How does "action at a distance" work? How do electrons instantaneously move from one quantum level to another without occupying the space between? No scientist believes that this is magic, but as Gordon says, it might as well be. And Stonehenge was a primitive scientific instrument, analogous to the super-collider.

Some eminent scientists have expressed this as well (so it's not just crackpots like Gordon and me). Bertrand Russell famously said "Mathematics may be defined as the subject in which we never know what we are talking about, nor whether what we are saying is true." That comment was partly tongue-in-cheek, but like Gordon's statement, it contains a large grain of truth. In much of modern mathematics and science, we are just manipulating symbols without any real understanding of the underlying reality. This is not to say that our activity isn't extremely useful, but it falls short of full understanding.

Me agreeing with anyone is a kiss of death around here, so I apologize for that upfront, but I do want to say you wrote that response very well. You are very clear in your writing, and I agree with it. Kudos. Thumbsup
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22-12-2014, 03:08 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(22-12-2014 11:20 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(20-12-2014 12:01 PM)Gordon Wrote:  You always here moronic atheists claim that there’s no evidence for the afterlife, none at all, and until they have evidence or a reason to believe, they will choose not to believe.

Okay, first you have to discount all near death experiences, which is simply sticking one’s head in the sand if you ask me, but then you have to discount the utter inability of the brain to produce consciousness. You just have to have a kind of faith that it does (even though simple life forms with no neurology at all seem to be quite conscious).

Finally, you have to discount dreams. I mean, think about it: you go to sleep at night, and suddenly you find yourself in a strange world that you never created. Sure, there are images you may see from your waking life, but we’ve all had dreams that defy that. We’ve all had dreams that we wake up from and say, “That had nothing to do with me or anything going on in my head.”

Some will say, “Nope, no matter what, a dream is just a replayed recording of life events, even if you can’t remember those events.” But again, that’s a statement of faith, that’s an opinion used to support atheism.

Fact is we have these strange dreams that have nothing to do with us. The very person we are in the dream may not even be the person we are, but we are conscious through them nonetheless. Why should we suppose that’s not exactly what happens when we die?

It sure looks like it would be. It sure looks like the more we lose consciousness in the waking world, the more we gain consciousness in the dream world. Some would say our mind is always on the astral plane and we are simply blinded to it by our physical awareness when we are awake.

After undergoing surgery and waking up from the general anesthesia, some people will say they remember nothing. It was just a blank loss of time. Some atheists use this as evidence that we blink out of consciousness entirely. But they don’t understand that the property of most general anesthetics is amnesia. Especially if Versed (midazolam) was used.

But we don’t’ have to go to that extent. There are mornings we wake up and remember nothing. That doesn’t mean nothing was experienced. In fact we know that people go into a dream state approximately 4-6 times a night, and in fact they may be in a dream state at other times during sleep as well. I can personally attest that I seem to dream all night long.

My point is this, we do have reason to believe we live after we die, we dream don’t we? Isn’t it pretty logical to assume that’s what’s waiting for us in the end?

Speaking of brains, have you tried using yours lately?

No really, I'm serious. Dodgy

Have you ever (while awake) imagined a place that you have never visited or seen? Have you ever imagined a place that doesn't even exist? Dreaming is simply that on automatic pilot.

Now, while your using your brain (I hope), go to Google and look up NDE's. If there was really an afterlife and a god, everyone experiencing NDE's would see the same god. However, you'll find that they each see only the god that they already believe in - and they can't ALL be the ONE god. You'll also find that NDE's have been explained and they aren't religious experiences at all. In fact, even rats have had NDE's.

Everything you wrote there is non sequitur. First, I agree that a daydream and a fantasy are essentially the same thing. But the brain can't do that. All it does is fire neurons. Firing neurons can't make decisions on how or in what order they will follow--unless you believe we have an installed software of some kind--and frankly I really wish you would say that we do. [Image: evilidea.gif]

Why would everyone see the same God in a NDE. God has manifested Himself in countless ways to people since, I would imagine, the beginning of modern human beings. God is going to "show himself" to us in any way we imagine Him.

How would we know a rat had an NDE? Huh
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22-12-2014, 03:09 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(22-12-2014 12:59 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(22-12-2014 12:57 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  The upside down dogs make a whole lot more sense than Gordon.

I have a lot more in reserve.

I like your upside down dogs. Thumbsup
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22-12-2014, 03:22 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
The University of Michigan :
Rats and NDEs.

OF COURSE Egoramus knows NOTHING about what he's even talking about.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/08/...xperiences

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-12-2014, 03:23 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(22-12-2014 12:45 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  All observable consciousness ceases after death. Regardless of what you think happens to it, I wouldn't call that "no effect."

I agree. Of course it happens at other times too, unless one of the "observations" you're referring to is electrical activity on an EEG.

And I will grant you, that I cannot prove life after death (flat EEG). But paramecia seem to be conscious without any neurology at all. We can't seem to figure out how a brain could possibly produce consciousness. Many people, myself included, have had dramatic psi experiences (telepathy, precognition, remote viewing). There is an enduring belief from the earliest evidence of modern humans that we have believed that life continues after physical death. There is the utter impossibility of the brain being able to control itself (a thought experiment I have written and can post if you like), there are instincts that animals have, and other oddities, like NDEs and past life memory experiences.

When you take all of that together, in a meta-consideration, if you will, and apply it to the question: Is it reasonable to believe we live after our physical death? while admitting it can't be proven, the answer must be, yes, it is reasonable to conclude that.

And if we reverse the question, we may not be able to prove life after life, but we can disprove it's opposite. The opposite being, "life cannot exist after physical death." Well, of course that statement is absurd from a logical perspective. Because we're claiming to know what can't be known.

Therefore, the only consideration I am presenting is that it is "reasonable to believe" in life after life.
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22-12-2014, 03:26 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(22-12-2014 12:59 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(22-12-2014 12:57 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  The upside down dogs make a whole lot more sense than Gordon.

I have a lot more in reserve.

We know. Weeping

Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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