Dreams and Life after Death?
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20-12-2014, 01:40 PM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2014 01:44 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 01:18 PM)Gordon Wrote:  I love the way atheists get so incensed whenever anyone breaks a rule from the Bible--that they say they don't believe in. [Image: laughloud.gif]

Yeah, that's me all totally incensed and shit. Girl_nails

Not a judgment. Just an observation.



#sigh
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20-12-2014, 01:41 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 12:01 PM)Gordon Wrote:  You always here moronic atheists claim that there’s no evidence for the afterlife, none at all, and until they have evidence or a reason to believe, they will choose not to believe.

Okay, first you have to discount all near death experiences, which is simply sticking one’s head in the sand if you ask me, but then you have to discount the utter inability of the brain to produce consciousness. You just have to have a kind of faith that it does (even though simple life forms with no neurology at all seem to be quite conscious).

Finally, you have to discount dreams. I mean, think about it: you go to sleep at night, and suddenly you find yourself in a strange world that you never created. Sure, there are images you may see from your waking life, but we’ve all had dreams that defy that. We’ve all had dreams that we wake up from and say, “That had nothing to do with me or anything going on in my head.”

Some will say, “Nope, no matter what, a dream is just a replayed recording of life events, even if you can’t remember those events.” But again, that’s a statement of faith, that’s an opinion used to support atheism.

Fact is we have these strange dreams that have nothing to do with us. The very person we are in the dream may not even be the person we are, but we are conscious through them nonetheless. Why should we suppose that’s not exactly what happens when we die?

It sure looks like it would be. It sure looks like the more we lose consciousness in the waking world, the more we gain consciousness in the dream world. Some would say our mind is always on the astral plane and we are simply blinded to it by our physical awareness when we are awake.

After undergoing surgery and waking up from the general anesthesia, some people will say they remember nothing. It was just a blank loss of time. Some atheists use this as evidence that we blink out of consciousness entirely. But they don’t understand that the property of most general anesthetics is amnesia. Especially if Versed (midazolam) was used.

But we don’t’ have to go to that extent. There are mornings we wake up and remember nothing. That doesn’t mean nothing was experienced. In fact we know that people go into a dream state approximately 4-6 times a night, and in fact they may be in a dream state at other times during sleep as well. I can personally attest that I seem to dream all night long.

My point is this, we do have reason to believe we live after we die, we dream don’t we? Isn’t it pretty logical to assume that’s what’s waiting for us in the end?

So, you can recall your dreams before you were born?

Anything else is simply speculation with a hard dash of wishful thinking.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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20-12-2014, 01:46 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 12:01 PM)Gordon Wrote:  My point is this, we do have reason to believe we live after we die, we dream don’t we?

In order to dream, an organism needs an intact functioning BRAIN.
Dead people's brains do not function.

The end.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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20-12-2014, 02:01 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 12:22 PM)Gordon Wrote:  I'm telling you all right now, I'm judging you. The initial responses tell me who knows anything and who knows nothing. Who should be considered, and who should be ignored. Who has any critical thinking skills and who's a fucking moron. So, you might want to think before you respond.

As usual in these types of expositions it's always important to see the salient mathematics, the meme as an equation, so to speak. Notice in particular the absence of any ears in the righthand side of the equivalence, signifying a complete absence of that function:

[Image: qsa9lu.jpg]

Lefthand image of Edward J. Gordon courtesy of Amazon's author's page for "The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ"
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20-12-2014, 02:04 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 02:01 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(20-12-2014 12:22 PM)Gordon Wrote:  I'm telling you all right now, I'm judging you. The initial responses tell me who knows anything and who knows nothing. Who should be considered, and who should be ignored. Who has any critical thinking skills and who's a fucking moron. So, you might want to think before you respond.

As usual in these types of expositions it's always important to see the salient mathematics, the meme as an equation, so to speak. Notice in particular the absence of any ears in the righthand side of the equivalence, signifying a complete absence of that function:

[Image: qsa9lu.jpg]

Lefthand image of Edward J. Gordon courtesy of Amazon's author's page for "The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ"

Now that's just fucking brilliant. Thumbsup

#sigh
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20-12-2014, 02:07 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
Just because you want it to be true doesn’t make it so.

Evidence of Life After Death? Not.

http://www.realclearscience.com/lists/ju...death.html

This fall, numerous media outlets blared otherworldly headlines claiming that scientists had found evidence of life after death. A close, skeptical look at the study in question, however, yielded nothing that would make you want to rethink existence.

The researchers behind the study http://www.resuscitationjournal.com/arti...4/abstract interviewed 140 survivors of cardiac arrest, and apparently one of those people reported memories of events during the cardiac arrest while they were unconscious. The researchers considered this lone instance strong evidence for a near-death experience in which the conscious mind or spirit separates from the body.

But is it really? http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index...ce-of-nde/

The interviews were conducted days, weeks, or even months after the cardiac arrest. During that time, memories were likely heavily altered, http://www.realclearscience.com/journal_...08363.html
either through faulty reconstruction or by speaking with others about the events.

“The most disconcerting aspect of human memory is not that we forget things; it's that we falsely remember them."

According to Yale neurologist Steven Novella:

"We need to consider what the odds are that one of the 140 people would have a memory (almost certainly contaminated, as no procedure was in place to prevent contamination) that matched events during cardiac arrest in some arbitrary details. This certainly sound consistent with random background noise in the data, and is therefore not evidence of anything.”

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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20-12-2014, 02:10 PM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2014 02:16 PM by The Polyglot Atheist.)
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 12:01 PM)Gordon Wrote:  Okay, first you have to discount all near death experiences, which is simply sticking one’s head in the sand if you ask me, but then you have to discount the utter inability of the brain to produce consciousness. You just have to have a kind of faith that it does (even though simple life forms with no neurology at all seem to be quite conscious).

I don't know of any evidence that shows near death experiences to be genuine. Same when people are dying they often claim to begin to see what is beyond, or someone waiting for them. If there is evidence that these are not hallucinations, I'd like to see it.

Brain produces consciousness, well, yes but really, the brain is your mind. There is no mind without a physical brain. Also, define "no neurology at all", even insects like roaches have "brains", not like ours but a system that functions like a brain. But being alive is different than being conscious or even self-conscious.

(20-12-2014 12:01 PM)Gordon Wrote:  Finally, you have to discount dreams. I mean, think about it: you go to sleep at night, and suddenly you find yourself in a strange world that you never created. Sure, there are images you may see from your waking life, but we’ve all had dreams that defy that. We’ve all had dreams that we wake up from and say, “That had nothing to do with me or anything going on in my head.”

Some will say, “Nope, no matter what, a dream is just a replayed recording of life events, even if you can’t remember those events.” But again, that’s a statement of faith, that’s an opinion used to support atheism.

Dreams are not always replays of real life events, and even when they are they can have alien elements in them. Sometimes you recognize a person in a dream, but when waking up, you realize the face was wrong, it was someone else's.

In any case, just saying that "dreams, therefore afterlife" is not enough, you need to prove the link there.

(20-12-2014 12:01 PM)Gordon Wrote:  My point is this, we do have reason to believe we live after we die, we dream don’t we? Isn’t it pretty logical to assume that’s what’s waiting for us in the end?

I don't see how that follows. We don't fully understand the brain yet and dreams still need to be fully explained but, how does that prove an afterlife? I still fail to see the link.

Besides, are monkeys, dogs, cats, rats, elephants, armadillos, opossums (etc) going to be judged and sent to Heaven too? Because they dream too, you know. Actually, the opossum and the armadillo seem to be more prolific dreamers than us.* According to what you said, they should have "more afterlife" than us.

———

* "The range of REM can be seen across species: dolphins experience minimal REM, while humans are in the middle of the scale and the armadillo and the opossum (a marsupial) are among the most prolific dreamers, judging from their REM patterns." — Taken from Dreams in animals (Wikipedia, source in the footnotes)

孤独 - The Out Crowd
Life is a flash of light between two eternities of darkness.
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20-12-2014, 02:17 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 01:03 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Dreaming is detectable by monitoring and the available evidence shows that it requires electrochemical activity in the brain. There is no evidence that there can be dreams without a living brain.

And yet here we have Gordon...

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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20-12-2014, 02:18 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
Let's start with this....when I don't know how something works, I say "I don't know."

If that answer isn't satisfying, I can create a hypothesis and run some experiments.
The first experiments I'll run will be in my head. I'll run scenarios and see if I can get a bit closer to answering my question.
I might even devise a real experiment to test some of the scenarios that I think can get me closer to answering the question.

When it comes to dreams and an after life and the common experiences that people have when they have come back from the dead, I think about other common experiences.

If I talk to people who have had their legs broken, I will come across a common experience that most all of them will share.
Given our physiology as human beings something like loss of oxygen for a period of time, the experience of the brain dying, you would expect there to be a common experience that most individuals would share.

With dreams, we all seem to share the ability to dream and from my own personal experience, dreams are a source of wonder and delight. I also have formulated a few ideas when it comes to my own personal dreams.

If you'll indulge me.

Right now as I type, my brain creates an environment that allows me to sense the world around my body. I cannot directly sense the universe. When I am unconscious, the universe and the world around me could explode into nothingness and I wouldn't even know it. So from the start, the environment I'm aware of is the environment that my brain gives me.

The things my brain experiences get passed down to me. I have no choice in this matter.
Any environment I find myself in is a product of my brain and at times while I'm dreaming I often find that I don't have access to higher levels of thinking and processing information, so my reactions in my dreams aren't the same reactions I would make when I have access to critical thinking, or access to a proper fight or flight response.

I categorize other states of consciousness into a few areas.
First is your basic dream state. You fall asleep and after a brief period of time that you aren't aware of, you're suddenly aware of some place and vaguely aware of what is happening there. A lot of your actions and reactions are very emotional. Happy, fear, confusion, joy, terror.

Second is a dream in which you are aware that you are dreaming. In many instances I become aware of the dream state and can take a higher level of action to my environment. My reactions aren't based solely on emotion. I can add in critical thinking and my own personal morals. In this state I can usually use powers in my dreams. Flight, telekinesis, and a host of others.

Third for me is a waking dream. I've only had a few in my entire lifetime. This waking dream is as close to reality as I've ever seen and felt. It truly seems as if I'm on another world.

Fourth is the split second dream that occurs while you take a 2 minute nap. You close your eyes and for a flash, you are someplace else and then you are awake. You check your clock or phone and only a minute or two has passed.

I'm fairly certain that others have fallen asleep with the tv on and in your dreams, the things happening on the tv influence the environment of your dreams. Songs, dialogue, explosions. Your brains is taking the stimulations from your senses and passing that along to the creative aspects of your brain that give you an environment.

How that all works....I have no idea, but it seems more than reasonable to assume that the environments we experience in life, whether it's awake or dreaming are products of our brain and when that brain ceases to provide us with the electrical stimulation for that environment, all that is left is oblivion.

If we had a soul, it would be aware ALL of the time. The very act of unconsciousness tells us that our experience of anything is based solely on the activity of our brains and nothing more.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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20-12-2014, 02:21 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 12:01 PM)Gordon Wrote:  You always here moronic atheists claim that ...


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