Dreams and Life after Death?
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20-12-2014, 06:51 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 03:49 PM)Gordon Wrote:  And for your NO POOF fix, you go to an atheist website posing as a scientific website. Sorry...update...make that one guy's atheist blog. Talk about religiosity.

Blink

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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20-12-2014, 08:12 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 05:06 PM)Gordon Wrote:  Then you haven't seen those events correctly. Unfortunately, I'm out of time. Got to go to work. If I get a chance there, I'll return to this and explain. But I too have seen a lot of death, CVAs, TBI and anoxic brain injury. I've been on codes like you. (1 year cardiology step down, 5 years ICU). Now I'm a psych nurse, and that's a whole new experience to shake your faith. But I saw things differently than you. And I will come back and try to expand on this.

Hasta luego. [Image: wavey.gif]

I have a feeling that when you say “I have to go to work” you are using that as a euphemism for “it’s time for my meds”.

Nurse: “Edward, time to put the computer away and take your medicine. Here’s the pretty red one you like so much”.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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20-12-2014, 09:23 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 01:10 PM)Nurse Wrote:  Conscious sedation and the amnesic effects of versed is not equivalent to death. The experience between administering and receiving it is quite different (I've done both). Neither of us have experienced death. When I've performed conscious sedations there are signs my patients are still alive and will wake up intact, especially since many times they are still capable of following verbal command. My dead patients, not so much.

For the record, I'm not talking about conscious sedation being the same thing as general anesthesia. Versed can cause amnesia, in fact it supposed to, and it is often used peioperatively for that reason, and as an anxiolytic, as I'm sure you know. My point there was that if people wake up from surgery and are simply "missing" time, it's not that their conscious soul has blinked out, it's that they probably just can't remember the experience of the astral plane, which would most probably be like a dream.

Other anesthesia agents, the inhalation ones like isoflurane, also produce significant amnesia.

Quote:My experience with post arrests, anoxic brain injuries, TBIs, and CVAs changed my perspective of what defines the self. Those experiences held a substantial role in my deconversion and the possibility of a post mortem preservation of the self.

But the self is constantly dying. It's never stable, and it's not the same thing as consciousness. The self, the ego, is a collection of habits one picks up as they live a physical life. That and physical psychiatric characteristics like being anxious or having mood instability, etc. Those things change very quickly when the environment changes.

I do not believe the "self" survives death, anymore than it survives childhood, or adolescence. But the consciousness, I believe does--that observer you have that watches you think (for lack of a better description). And that is evident even after TBI, CVA, or anoxic brain inuries. Unless the brain is so damaged that the indiviual cannot display consciousness.

Obviously, a body designed to have a brain, must have a functioning brain in order to display consciousness.

I've only had one instance of being "knocked" unconscious (while climbing on ice in the mountains), and I was still "there." I didn't just miss time, but neither was I "Edward" during that time. I was the observer.

I would think being a nurse is made more difficult if one is an atheist, maybe not for some. For me, it would be impossible.

What area of nursing are you in?
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20-12-2014, 09:31 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 06:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  That we don't yet have a complete explanation of consciousness does not mean you get to blithely insert woo and be believed.

Your critical thinking skills are all but non-existent.

If there is no physical explanation for consciousness, which there is not and never will be. Then it is not unreasonable to conclude that physical processes will have no effect on it, like death.
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20-12-2014, 09:39 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 12:01 PM)Gordon Wrote:  they will choose not to believe.

Strawman or at least a msiconception. You cannot choose not to believe in something. Either you do or you do not. I personally see an afterlife as highly unlikely. I really DO "really hope" that there is some kind of continued existence of my conciousness in some kind of way. I really hope there really is! I do not want to die like the rest of humanity and it scares me like anyone. I cannot "choose" to believe in it though. Even if I wanted too, believe does not work that way. That is how Delusion works over a long period of time.

Either you do or do not. There are people whom simply do not believe in deities or afterlife period and that is not their choice, it is simply what is.

Quote:Okay, first you have to discount all near death experiences, which is simply sticking one’s head in the sand if you ask me,


We can artificially recreate a near death experience in a lab. It is basically the brain malfunctioning as your brain is firing off everything it can as fast as it can to keep your fucking body alive. Take in part your already being well aware of the fact you are possibly or already dying, indoctrination, and the fact that part of dying is that your brain loses the ability to function with the central nervous system giving you that lifting off the ground and out of body feeling since temperature and weight can no longer be felt. You soon get a recipe for everything that accounts for the near death experience.



Quote:but then you have to discount the utter inability of the brain to produce consciousness. You just have to have a kind of faith that it does (even though simple life forms with no neurology at all seem to be quite conscious).

Ok, where the hell did you get that from? We know the brain is what makes conciousness. We are mapping out the brain completely right now and in the next 20 years, we will have a full, complete knowledge of how and what consciousness is and how it works completely. By the time we are done, mind reading technology, the technology to detect thought crimes before they happen and to detect future personality disorders will be possible.



Quote:Finally, you have to discount dreams. I mean, think about it: you go to sleep at night, and suddenly you find yourself in a strange world that you never created. Sure, there are images you may see from your waking life, but we’ve all had dreams that defy that. We’ve all had dreams that we wake up from and say, “That had nothing to do with me or anything going on in my head.”

I am not an expert on dreams, but neither are you. Why not go to college and take some psychology classes on how dreams work, and what we actually know about them before trying to comment on them like this eh?

Nothing in your dreams is not created by you. Your subconscious makes those dreams. As for why they are there, what they mean and how they work. Just go to college and study them there. Until than, you do not know enough to use them for evidence for your case.


Quote:Some will say, “Nope, no matter what, a dream is just a replayed recording of life events, even if you can’t remember those events.” But again, that’s a statement of faith, that’s an opinion used to support atheism.

No, that is a comment from someone who does not know what the hell they are talking about.

Quote:Fact is we have these strange dreams that have nothing to do with us. The very person we are in the dream may not even be the person we are, but we are conscious through them nonetheless. Why should we suppose that’s not exactly what happens when we die?

Because consciousness as we know it is the result of electrical synapses firing through our brains through an ocean of chemicals. That does not turn into magical clouds of gas that exists outside of time space and lift to somewhere good or bad depending on how some celestial dick head feels about us.

Quote:It sure looks like it would be. It sure looks like the more we lose consciousness in the waking world, the more we gain consciousness in the dream world. Some would say our mind is always on the astral plane and we are simply blinded to it by our physical awareness when we are awake.

You clearly do not know the difference between conscious and subconscious.

Quote:My point is this, we do have reason to believe we live after we die, we dream don’t we? Isn’t it pretty logical to assume that’s what’s waiting for us in the end?

Again, go to college and actually study psychology and how dreams work.


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20-12-2014, 10:20 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 09:39 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Strawman or at least a msiconception. You cannot choose not to believe in something. Either you do or you do not. I personally see an afterlife as highly unlikely. I really DO "really hope" that there is some kind of continued existence of my conciousness in some kind of way. I really hope there really is! I do not want to die like the rest of humanity and it scares me like anyone. I cannot "choose" to believe in it though. Even if I wanted too, believe does not work that way. That is how Delusion works over a long period of time.

You don't have to believe in life after death. You don't even have to worry about it. You have to believe in Jesus Christ if you want to live forever. God holds everything in existence, and He has set a requirement for those who want to live eternally--outside of hell--that they should believe in the one He sent.

Just what "believing in Jesus Christ" means is the subject of another conversation.

But "you" aren't going to live after you die. "You" are an ego formed by this world. Think about it, if you examine your dreams, you'll see that even in them you are not the same person.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not getting into all that with you. There is a misconception that the brain causes or generates the mind. It is a very convenient model, like thinking of atoms as matter with little electrons spinning around them like planets. But not only is there no way to confirm that hypothesis; there is a lot of evidence against it: psi phenomena, paramecium behavior, the behavior of nuerons, and just plain old logic.

It's very easy to confuse the signs of consciousness with consciousness, itself. But they are not the same things.
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20-12-2014, 10:27 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
A misconception that the brain causes and generates the mind?

Seriously, go to a fucking psychology class. The brain is the exact reason why we think, feel, and have a conciousness.
You are trying to argue a scientific fact that we have known about for centuries. Billions are being spent a year world wide for research to further our understanding.

It is not a convenient model, it IS the model. There IS a way to confirm it and it is not a hypothesis as you say. You have zero evidence that we get our consciousness from anything else other than our brain. We know it to be a fact, have overwhelming evidence for it and research into the human mind has been a think for a lot longer than any of us have been alive.

Your just using pseudoscience to try and explain something that has already an explaination for it.


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20-12-2014, 10:31 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
[/quote]
(20-12-2014 02:10 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  I don't see how that follows. We don't fully understand the brain yet and dreams still need to be fully explained but, how does that prove an afterlife? I still fail to see the link.

Nothing in my OP is about proof. It's about reasonable belief.

Quote:Besides, are monkeys, dogs, cats, rats, elephants, armadillos, opossums (etc) going to be judged and sent to Heaven too? Because they dream too, you know. Actually, the opossum and the armadillo seem to be more prolific dreamers than us.* According to what you said, they should have "more afterlife" than us.

That doesn't even make sense. I never said anything like that. Those animals are conscious, but they are not capable of understanding Jesus Christ.

Do I really have to tell you that? Unsure
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20-12-2014, 10:34 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
delete please
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20-12-2014, 10:35 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 10:27 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  A misconception that the brain causes and generates the mind?

Seriously, go to a fucking psychology class. The brain is the exact reason why we think, feel, and have a conciousness.
You are trying to argue a scientific fact that we have known about for centuries. Billions are being spent a year world wide for research to further our understanding.

You're an idiot. Every statement you just wrote is wrong. And I'm not going to argue with you about it.
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