Dreams and Life after Death?
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20-12-2014, 10:52 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 10:35 PM)Gordon Wrote:  
(20-12-2014 10:27 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  A misconception that the brain causes and generates the mind?

Seriously, go to a fucking psychology class. The brain is the exact reason why we think, feel, and have a conciousness.
You are trying to argue a scientific fact that we have known about for centuries. Billions are being spent a year world wide for research to further our understanding.

You're an idiot. Every statement you just wrote is wrong. And I'm not going to argue with you about it.

The only person here is who is wrong is you Gordon. You are acting a lot like the creationist who laughs are science because it does not agree with what their bible says of how humans were created, and the fact that the flood they worship so much never happened.

There is nothing in science that has ever once pointed to, or given evidence towards living creatures consciousness originating from anywhere other than our brains and the way our brain works. Because your belief is that there is some mystical force that form dreams and memories, that this mystical power is what gives us consciousness, you automatically reject modern psychological science in substitute for your religious, pseudoscience by default.

You clearly have little to no understanding of how consciousness works, or what dreams are. They are merely the product of our subconscious mind.

Here are some fun introduction videos. They wont give you the answers you need to more fully understand everything, but it will be a start.








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20-12-2014, 10:57 PM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2014 11:04 PM by Gordon.)
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
Here is an entry from Live Science about the mysteries of the mind. In this case, it's talking about memory.

Some experiences are hard to forget, like perhaps your first kiss. But how does a person hold onto these personal movies? Using brain-imaging techniques, scientists are unraveling the mechanism responsible for creating and storing memories. They are finding that the hippocampus, within the brain's gray matter, could act as a memory box. But this storage area isn't so discriminatory. It turns out that both true and false memories activate similar brain regions. To pull out the real memory, some researchers ask a subject to recall the memory in context, something that's much more difficult when the event didn't actually occur.

I want you too look close at that. It sounds as if science is on top of things, but really it's not. Look at the items I've bolded. They all show that nothing is really known at all. So the entry sounds authoritative, but it's not. However, this is the kind of stuff that atheists kling to as facts. But they are only speculations.

No matter what anyone tells you the fact is we don't understand any of the most basics of life or existence, not from a scientific perspective.

We don't know what began the universe.
We don't know what time is.
We don't know how gravity works.
We don't know what consciousness is or why the mind works the way it does.
We don't understand why animals have instincts.
We don't know how we remember things.
We don't understand how subatomic particles can be both waves and particles.
We don't know how observation collapses the wave function.

And the list goes on.

The problem is there's a huge area that science is prohibited from looking into because the realms of mind and pobably quantum mechanics and gravity, aren't physical and don't operate according to physical cause and effect.

Science, therefore, is at best a sub-god, unworthy of the worship atheists give to it.
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20-12-2014, 11:02 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 10:20 PM)Gordon Wrote:  
(20-12-2014 09:39 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Strawman or at least a msiconception. You cannot choose not to believe in something. Either you do or you do not. I personally see an afterlife as highly unlikely. I really DO "really hope" that there is some kind of continued existence of my conciousness in some kind of way. I really hope there really is! I do not want to die like the rest of humanity and it scares me like anyone. I cannot "choose" to believe in it though. Even if I wanted too, believe does not work that way. That is how Delusion works over a long period of time.

You don't have to believe in life after death. You don't even have to worry about it. You have to believe in Jesus Christ if you want to live forever. God holds everything in existence, and He has set a requirement for those who want to live eternally--outside of hell--that they should believe in the one He sent.

Just what "believing in Jesus Christ" means is the subject of another conversation.

But "you" aren't going to live after you die. "You" are an ego formed by this world. Think about it, if you examine your dreams, you'll see that even in them you are not the same person.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not getting into all that with you. There is a misconception that the brain causes or generates the mind. It is a very convenient model, like thinking of atoms as matter with little electrons spinning around them like planets. But not only is there no way to confirm that hypothesis; there is a lot of evidence against it: psi phenomena, paramecium behavior, the behavior of nuerons, and just plain old logic.

It's very easy to confuse the signs of consciousness with consciousness, itself. But they are not the same things.

Now, why would I want to live forever?

The human ego is so insecure and fallible and the idea of not existing anymore so disturbing that we have invented a way out of the situation.

The fear of death is such that we even came up with a deity with all kinds of rules and regulations to follow and a book that sadistically feeds on our guilt if those rules are ignored.

Our fear of death is so great that we are willing to send billions of people to an invented bad place if they don't believe in a father figure who has never shown any evidence of existing.

The immorality of this is unconscionable.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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20-12-2014, 11:07 PM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 10:57 PM)Gordon Wrote:  We don't know what began the universe.
We don't know what time is.
We don't know how gravity works.
We don't know what consciousness is or why the mind works the way it does.
We don't understand why animals have instincts.
We don't know how we remember things.
We don't understand how subatomic particles can be both waves and particles.
We don't know how observation collapses the wave function.

1. God of the Gaps.

2. What's in bold we do know already.
Whats in read is stuff we already know a lot about. Enough to safely assume that the majority of what we do know is correct until proven otherwise.


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21-12-2014, 12:21 AM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 12:01 PM)Gordon Wrote:  You always here moronic atheists

Good start. Five words in and we've already got one ad hominem and grammar that wouldn't pass fifth grade. This can only get better. Facepalm

Quote:claim that there’s no evidence for the afterlife

Because there isn't. The very phrase "life after death" is a contradiction.

Quote:Okay, first you have to discount all near death experiences

And? Your "evidence" is anecdotal accounts from people who were so intensely traumatized at the time that medical professionals were having difficulty tracking their vitals? You'd be better off getting your religion from back alley drunks. They're less impaired.

Quote:but then you have to discount the utter inability of the brain to produce consciousness.

Come again?

Quote:even though simple life forms with no neurology at all seem to be quite conscious).

Name one.

Quote:Finally, you have to discount dreams.

Dreams QED God. I'll grant you, it's better than bananas but not much.

Quote:I mean, think about it: you go to sleep at night, and suddenly you find yourself in a strange world that you never created. Sure, there are images you may see from your waking life, but we’ve all had dreams that defy that. We’ve all had dreams that we wake up from and say, “That had nothing to do with me or anything going on in my head.”

I once dreamt that I could interpret French in five dimensions. I'm pretty sure that god had nothing to do with it. I'm told that you can get wierder shit from dropping acid or eating the wrong mushrooms.

Quote:Fact is we have these strange dreams that have nothing to do with us. The very person we are in the dream may not even be the person we are, but we are conscious through them nonetheless. Why should we suppose that’s not exactly what happens when we die?

I'm going to go with the easy answer that dreaming people have brain function, whereas dead people typically don't. There's the tiniest difference between REM and death. And I never want to be a patient in a ward that you work on.

Quote:It sure looks like the more we lose consciousness in the waking world, the more we gain consciousness in the dream world.

That would be because sleeping isn't loss of consciousness. It's an altered state of consciousness. In sleep you can be woken relatively easily. While unconscious they can open your chest up and twiddle with your innards without you noticing. I would hope that you'd understand this sort of basic "response to stimulus" test as a medical professional but I'm becoming increasingly alarmed.

Quote:Some would say our mind is always on the astral plane and we are simply blinded to it by our physical awareness when we are awake.

And some would say that their butt lint rules the world but I generally disregard them too.

Quote:There are mornings we wake up and remember nothing. That doesn’t mean nothing was experienced. In fact we know that people go into a dream state approximately 4-6 times a night, and in fact they may be in a dream state at other times during sleep as well.

Whether you remember your dreams is governed to a large extent to how well you're sleeping. If you're sleeping deeply then you don't tend to remember them. If it's toward the tail end of your sleep, or you're sick, you've just scarfed down a few slices of pizza, or your wife is kicking you all night, and you're sleeping lightly or poorly then your dreams tend to get remembered more completely. Good evidence that consciousness, memory and dreaming are produced by the mind and brain. Well done.

Quote:My point is this

There was a point to that? No

Quote:we do have reason to believe we live after we die

Nope.

Quote:Isn’t it pretty logical to assume that’s what’s waiting for us in the end?

Nope. Brain works during dreams. See brain. See brain run. Brain no go when you die. See Brain die. Die brain, die. No brain, no dreams. Just decay and oblivion.

It's like expecting your computer to keep working after you've smashed it to pieces with a sledge hammer.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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21-12-2014, 12:39 AM (This post was last modified: 21-12-2014 01:33 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 10:35 PM)Gordon Wrote:  
(20-12-2014 10:27 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  A misconception that the brain causes and generates the mind?

Seriously, go to a fucking psychology class. The brain is the exact reason why we think, feel, and have a consciousness.
You are trying to argue a scientific fact that we have known about for centuries. Billions are being spent a year world wide for research to further our understanding.

You're an idiot. Every statement you just wrote is wrong. And I'm not going to argue with you about it.

Because you can't.
You do not possess the intelectual equipment to argue with a kindergartner.
You are so pathetic.

"We don't know what began the universe.
We don't know what time is.
We don't know how gravity works.
We don't know what consciousness is or why the mind works the way it does.
We don't understand why animals have instincts.
We don't know how we remember things.
We don't understand how subatomic particles can be both waves and particles.
We don't know how observation collapses the wave function.

And the list goes on."


Thanks for demonstrating your entire edifice of crap is built on god of the gaps, and your personal ignorance.

We know how gravity works. You don't.

Neuro-science knows how brains work to some degree. The rest is only a matter of time. The fact we don't know everything TODAY, (and YOU NEED TO) only shows how mentally ill you really are, and how little you know about the scientific process.

We do know why animals have instincts. You don't as you are totally ignorant of science.

We do know how we remember. You don't, as you are an ignorant fool. Two people got a Nobel last year or the year before working in the field. You are so unaware of the general world, it's unbelievable.

As far as the last two go, you don't. The fact that you even stated the problemss the way you did, proves you haven't the foggiest clue about what you're talking about, or what questions you're even posing.

So the question for you Egoramus, is : "IF you did have the answers to those questions, then you would agree you would stop buying into belief in a god" ?
If the answer is "no". than you make that little list in bad faith, and posed an intellectually dishonest argument.

The human race has been doing science as a formal method for about 300-400 years. That's a nano-second of time, in the history of both the Earth and the universe.
The gods are done as explanations. They explain nothing.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-12-2014, 01:22 AM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 10:57 PM)Gordon Wrote:  Here is an entry from Live Science about the mysteries of the mind. In this case, it's talking about memory.

Some experiences are hard to forget, like perhaps your first kiss. But how does a person hold onto these personal movies? Using brain-imaging techniques, scientists are unraveling the mechanism responsible for creating and storing memories. They are finding that the hippocampus, within the brain's gray matter, could act as a memory box. But this storage area isn't so discriminatory. It turns out that both true and false memories activate similar brain regions. To pull out the real memory, some researchers ask a subject to recall the memory in context, something that's much more difficult when the event didn't actually occur.

I want you too look close at that. It sounds as if science is on top of things, but really it's not. Look at the items I've bolded. They all show that nothing is really known at all. So the entry sounds authoritative, but it's not. However, this is the kind of stuff that atheists kling to as facts. But they are only speculations.

No matter what anyone tells you the fact is we don't understand any of the most basics of life or existence, not from a scientific perspective.

We don't know what began the universe.
We don't know what time is.
We don't know how gravity works.
We don't know what consciousness is or why the mind works the way it does.
We don't understand why animals have instincts.
We don't know how we remember things.
We don't understand how subatomic particles can be both waves and particles.
We don't know how observation collapses the wave function.

And the list goes on.

The problem is there's a huge area that science is prohibited from looking into because the realms of mind and pobably quantum mechanics and gravity, aren't physical and don't operate according to physical cause and effect.

Science, therefore, is at best a sub-god, unworthy of the worship atheists give to it.

Wow... really?

[Image: Idontknow_zps13ecfc56.jpeg]

How about you go back to threatening people with your taekwondo black belt again, like old times?
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21-12-2014, 01:32 AM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 10:57 PM)Gordon Wrote:  Science, therefore, is at best a sub-god, unworthy of the worship atheists give to it.

Oh please, you are benefiting from the work of science and scientists every second of your life. Science, at the very least is infinitely more worthy of worship than any versions of the chistian god, including yours.
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21-12-2014, 01:34 AM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(20-12-2014 10:20 PM)Gordon Wrote:  
(20-12-2014 09:39 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Strawman or at least a msiconception. You cannot choose not to believe in something. Either you do or you do not. I personally see an afterlife as highly unlikely. I really DO "really hope" that there is some kind of continued existence of my conciousness in some kind of way. I really hope there really is! I do not want to die like the rest of humanity and it scares me like anyone. I cannot "choose" to believe in it though. Even if I wanted too, believe does not work that way. That is how Delusion works over a long period of time.

You don't have to believe in life after death. You don't even have to worry about it. You have to believe in Jesus Christ if you want to live forever. God holds everything in existence, and He has set a requirement for those who want to live eternally--outside of hell--that they should believe in the one He sent.

Just what "believing in Jesus Christ" means is the subject of another conversation.

But "you" aren't going to live after you die. "You" are an ego formed by this world. Think about it, if you examine your dreams, you'll see that even in them you are not the same person.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not getting into all that with you. There is a misconception that the brain causes or generates the mind. It is a very convenient model, like thinking of atoms as matter with little electrons spinning around them like planets. But not only is there no way to confirm that hypothesis; there is a lot of evidence against it: psi phenomena, paramecium behavior, the behavior of nuerons, and just plain old logic.

It's very easy to confuse the signs of consciousness with consciousness, itself. But they are not the same things.

*yawn*

You're going in a box or an oven you dumb fuck, and that's where you and your sad story will end. You can boo-hoo about it and make up what ever lies it takes to distract you from your own mortality but in the end you will be just another stupid, ignorant, superstitious cunt who will think his existance is just starting as it ends. The Big Nothing is coming for you Gordon and no matter how much you thrash and wail and nash your teeth you will never escape it, no matter how hard you bluster and curse and pray you're just worm food waiting to happen. Make peace with it or don't, it won't change what happens.

Hell that all aside do you REALLY think Jesus, as he is portrayed in the Bible, wants to spend all of eternity surrounded almost exclusively by dumb cunts pulled from the most uneducated, superstitious, gullible, and just plain stupid the world has to offer?
I doubt that a great deal.Drinking Beverage

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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21-12-2014, 01:36 AM
RE: Dreams and Life after Death?
(21-12-2014 12:21 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Because there isn't. The very phrase "life after death" is a contradiction.

Prove it. You're so sure, so prove it. You're not just stating a belief are you?

You're correct: the appropriate term would be life after life, not life after death. So prove it. You stated it as a fact, now back it up.

Or shut the fuck up. Thumbsup
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