Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
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12-12-2017, 11:47 AM
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
(12-12-2017 11:26 AM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 10:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, it would be over in about a month. Today's technology could sink their entire navy in a week. Or less.

With their entire navy gone, they would no longer be able to wage war.

And yet, they could still be suicide bombing us.

Without aircraft carriers from which to launch attacks? Nope.

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12-12-2017, 11:56 AM
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
(12-12-2017 11:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 11:26 AM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  And yet, they could still be suicide bombing us.

Without aircraft carriers from which to launch attacks? Nope.

The premise is that today's generals fight Japan in 1941 using today's tech and today's strategy of surgical strikes, and an abhorrence for collateral damage. The war would technically be won in a matter of weeks. We would destroy their navy and blow anything Japanese out of the sky. There would be no firebombing of Tokyo. There would be no nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It would be a very surgical, very clean victory.

But I think that we would continue to have problems with their insurgents for decades. We might still be fighting Japanese terrorists to this day.

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12-12-2017, 12:01 PM
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
There's a reason why bomb raids weren't part of the charges at the Nuremberg tribunals. The allies didn't feel comfortable bringing that up. They were well aware that bombing with the outspoken goal of dehousing, as they put it, wasn't exactly a topic to be proud of or to be exposed by the defence council.

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12-12-2017, 12:04 PM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2017 12:22 PM by adey67.)
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
(12-12-2017 03:07 AM)JAH Wrote:  As vile as the bombing of civilians in London was the conscious fire bombing of the the above named cities is in my mind more reprehensible.

It was done to kill civilians and destroy towns. Is that a thing one should do during war, that is a somewhat difficult question but my own opinion is not. Killing other soldiers on a battle field is not something I approve of but something I understand. Destroying a city for the purpose of intimidating possible innocent people is something I do not understand.

This should include the relentless bombing of Berlin when that had little or no merit.

I would also point out that using Agent Orange in Veitnam only poisoned much of their population with only that effect.

Drones killing wedding parties is only the most recent effect of indiscriminate aerial attack.

Curtis LeMay should have been killed well before he died of natural causes.

Bullshit, world war two was a just conflict and the two protagonists you talk about have a history of proven crimes against humanity they had to be defeated at all costs, "Oh we bombed Tokyo and Dresden we're soo bad lets all fucking kill ourselves in shame, oh they murdered six million Jews and untold numbers of Chinese and POW's lets give them a pass it wasn't so bad, aren't we evil for stopping them at huge cost to our countries and benefit to the world.":@ Also one unfortunate strike on a gathering in comparison with many drone strikes on evil Islamist scum is not a fair comparison, but then the perpetrators of 9/11 were clearly just misunderstood, my bad obviously they are really good folks. Seriously dude do you really believe these assholes would have abided by symmetrical battlefield based warfare history shows they would have and indeed did anything and everything and more besides.
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12-12-2017, 12:18 PM
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
(12-12-2017 12:04 PM)adey67 Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 03:07 AM)JAH Wrote:  As vile as the bombing of civilians in London was the conscious fire bombing of the the above named cities is in my mind more reprehensible.

It was done to kill civilians and destroy towns. Is that a thing one should do during war, that is a somewhat difficult question but my own opinion is not. Killing other soldiers on a battle field is not something I approve of but something I understand. Destroying a city for the purpose of intimidating possible innocent people is something I do not understand.

This should include the relentless bombing of Berlin when that had little or no merit.

I would also point out that using Agent Orange in Veitnam only poisoned much of their population with only that effect.

Drones killing wedding parties is only the most recent effect of indiscriminate aerial attack.

Curtis LeMay should have been killed well before he died of natural causes.

Bullshit, world war two was a just conflict and the two protagonists you talk about have a history of proven crimes against humanity they had to be defeated at all costs, "Oh we bombed Tokyo and Dresden we're soo bad lets all fucking kill ourselves in shame, oh they murdered six million Jews and untold numbers of Chinese and POW's lets give them a pass it wasn't so bad, aren't we evil for stopping them at huge cost to our countries and benefit to the world.":@

One party acting like shit does not absolve second party from whatever shotty deeds it commited.

WWII was mostly clean on allied side (USSR excluded) but but hands of allies aren't exactly clear. Bombings aside, they gave Russians deserters to USSR after hostilities ended knowing what awaits them.

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12-12-2017, 12:23 PM
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
Of course two wrongs don't make a right. But when you mess with the bull, you get the horns. Fighting a war is almost always an amoral act, insofar as morality is not considered in planning or execution of operations. That's changing.
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12-12-2017, 12:26 PM
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
(12-12-2017 12:18 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 12:04 PM)adey67 Wrote:  Bullshit, world war two was a just conflict and the two protagonists you talk about have a history of proven crimes against humanity they had to be defeated at all costs, "Oh we bombed Tokyo and Dresden we're soo bad lets all fucking kill ourselves in shame, oh they murdered six million Jews and untold numbers of Chinese and POW's lets give them a pass it wasn't so bad, aren't we evil for stopping them at huge cost to our countries and benefit to the world.":@

One party acting like shit does not absolve second party from whatever shotty deeds it commited.

WWII was mostly clean on allied side (USSR excluded) but but hands of allies aren't exactly clear. Bombings aside, they gave Russians deserters to USSR after hostilities ended knowing what awaits them.

Did we and America also not have the death penalty for desertion ?
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12-12-2017, 12:29 PM
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
(12-12-2017 12:26 PM)adey67 Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 12:18 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  One party acting like shit does not absolve second party from whatever shotty deeds it commited.

WWII was mostly clean on allied side (USSR excluded) but but hands of allies aren't exactly clear. Bombings aside, they gave Russians deserters to USSR after hostilities ended knowing what awaits them.

Did we and America also not have the death penalty for desertion ?
Possibly. However these countries didn't recently killed and impoverished millions of it's citizens robbing them of motivation to fight.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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12-12-2017, 01:54 PM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2017 01:58 PM by abaris.)
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
(12-12-2017 12:18 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  WWII was mostly clean on allied side (USSR excluded) but but hands of allies aren't exactly clear. Bombings aside, they gave Russians deserters to USSR after hostilities ended knowing what awaits them.

Well, it wasn't the cleanest move, but these people weren't mere deserters. Most of them fought under German command against the soviets. I actually feel worse over figures like Patton ordering his troops to take no prisoners. Isolated incidences compared to German war crimes, but still war crimes.

I'm actually not sure, if you're talking about the Wlassow people or the Tartars or the freed inmates of the concentration and POW camps. Stalin wasn't known for treating freed POWs gently either. He branded them traitors after all and let his own son get killed in German captivity although the Germans offered an exchange.

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12-12-2017, 01:59 PM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2017 02:29 PM by Vera.)
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
There is no crime, absolutely none, that cannot be condoned when 'our' side commits it. - GEORGE ORWELL

Not at all surprised to see the usual suspects basking in their usual moral superiority. Drinking Beverage

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