Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
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12-12-2017, 02:19 PM
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
(12-12-2017 01:54 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 12:18 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  WWII was mostly clean on allied side (USSR excluded) but but hands of allies aren't exactly clear. Bombings aside, they gave Russians deserters to USSR after hostilities ended knowing what awaits them.

Well, it wasn't the cleanest move, but these people weren't mere deserters. Most of them fought under German command against the soviets. I actually feel worse over figures like Patton ordering his troops to take no prisoners. Isolated incidences compared to German war crimes, but still war crimes.

I'm actually not sure, if you're talking about the Wlassow people or the Tartars or the freed inmates of the concentration and POW camps. Stalin wasn't known for treating freed POWs gently either. He branded them traitors after all and let his own son get killed in German captivity although the Germans offered an exchange.

In haste to make point I tried to find word encompassing all groups you mention and I unfortunately ended with deserters. I however feel sorry even for Wlasow people, fucked by their country so hard that they decided fighting for Germans was good choice.

As for Stalin (according to Montefiore, "Court of the Red Tsar") his decission in regard to son was partly dictated by conscience as he said that many other fathers were losing sons but no one would offer them exchange. Don't sound much Stalin like but simple personalities are teritory of fiction not necesarilly real life.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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12-12-2017, 03:04 PM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2017 03:08 PM by abaris.)
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
(12-12-2017 02:19 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for Stalin (according to Montefiore, "Court of the Red Tsar") his decission in regard to son was partly dictated by conscience as he said that many other fathers were losing sons but no one would offer them exchange. Don't sound much Stalin like but simple personalities are teritory of fiction not necesarilly real life.

Yeah, I read his book as well. But it seemed to me that Montefiore made a point of him being callous. At least that's how I remember the passage.

As for the turncoats, in lack of a better word, it's complicated. There were the ones wrongly believing in a brighter future if the Germans won. But they also provided concentration camp guards later on in the war. Mostly Ukranians, who earned infamy in the death camps of the east.

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12-12-2017, 03:09 PM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2017 03:19 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
(12-12-2017 03:04 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 02:19 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for Stalin (according to Montefiore, "Court of the Red Tsar") his decission in regard to son was partly dictated by conscience as he said that many other fathers were losing sons but no one would offer them exchange. Don't sound much Stalin like but simple personalities are teritory of fiction not necesarilly real life.

Yeah, I read his book as well. But it seemed to me that Montefiore made a point of him being callous. At least that's how I remember the passage.

If I'm not misremembering or confusing it with another book I would say that it was heartbroken confession of father feeling pain yet being aware of losses in other families.

I can't judge turncoats. When alternative is death in the camp in name of loyalty to country that fucked you over and out I don't know what would I choose. It's easy to say that I would preffer death over hurting innocent but without experiencing what they experienced these are empty words.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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12-12-2017, 07:29 PM
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
(12-12-2017 11:56 AM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 11:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  Without aircraft carriers from which to launch attacks? Nope.

The premise is that today's generals fight Japan in 1941 using today's tech and today's strategy of surgical strikes, and an abhorrence for collateral damage. The war would technically be won in a matter of weeks. We would destroy their navy and blow anything Japanese out of the sky. There would be no firebombing of Tokyo. There would be no nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It would be a very surgical, very clean victory.

But I think that we would continue to have problems with their insurgents for decades. We might still be fighting Japanese terrorists to this day.

Agree with Chas. Japan is an island. With today's military not only could we render it completely isolated and impotent we could, at will, send a drone in here and there just to remind them who's in charge, or perhaps, when bored, wish the emperor a happy birthday. You can take any war at any time in history and arbitrarily say, well, if you literally don't kill all of them, then "we might still be fighting _________________ terrorists today."

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13-12-2017, 04:30 AM
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
(12-12-2017 07:29 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 11:56 AM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  The premise is that today's generals fight Japan in 1941 using today's tech and today's strategy of surgical strikes, and an abhorrence for collateral damage. The war would technically be won in a matter of weeks. We would destroy their navy and blow anything Japanese out of the sky. There would be no firebombing of Tokyo. There would be no nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It would be a very surgical, very clean victory.

But I think that we would continue to have problems with their insurgents for decades. We might still be fighting Japanese terrorists to this day.

Agree with Chas. Japan is an island. With today's military not only could we render it completely isolated and impotent we could, at will, send a drone in here and there just to remind them who's in charge, or perhaps, when bored, wish the emperor a happy birthday. You can take any war at any time in history and arbitrarily say, well, if you literally don't kill all of them, then "we might still be fighting _________________ terrorists today."

I really think that my point was totally misunderstood. Probably my fault for attempting to use a counterfactual example.

I sometimes have passionate arguments with myself that almost come to blows.
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13-12-2017, 04:36 AM
RE: Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo
(12-12-2017 12:29 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 12:26 PM)adey67 Wrote:  Did we and America also not have the death penalty for desertion ?
Possibly. However these countries didn't recently killed and impoverished millions of it's citizens robbing them of motivation to fight.

Fair comment mate can't argue with you there. Yes
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