Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
Thread Closed 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-02-2014, 02:04 PM
Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
Drich Wrote:Rules would be the same plus one or two concerning content.
The rules of this "debate" are simple:

- Questions should not be avoided or circumvented

- Questions should be given the most direct answer possible

- posts should be kept as short as possible

- the person who claims something has the burden to proove, name evidence or at least give good arguments or explanations *Either party may call for source material and may be asked to defend it.

- keep polite and refrain from logical fallacies

* The discussion needs to be focoused on Christianity in General, The God of the Bible or the bible itself. I do not want to get into other religions/beliefs.

Fine with me.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
Find all posts by this user
18-02-2014, 02:13 PM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
Please explain why Thomas the Apostle did not get fired by Jesus, when he refused to believe that Jesus was risen from the dead.
Going so far as to declare;
"Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."
Joh 20:25

Upon Thomas' satisfaction, Jesus says, ""Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Yet, Jesus does not curse Thomas. Nor remove him from the Apostleship.

According to damn near everything you've posted, anyone who doesn't "choose" to believe is going to "hell".

How do you reconcile this?

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
Find all posts by this user
[+] 3 users Like Kestrel's post
18-02-2014, 08:46 PM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
(18-02-2014 02:13 PM)Kestrel Wrote:  Please explain why Thomas the Apostle did not get fired by Jesus, when he refused to believe that Jesus was risen from the dead.
Going so far as to declare;
"Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."
Joh 20:25
Thomas was not 'fired' because God wanted to illustrate that he was willing to provide 'proof' for those who sought after it. As witnessed by your very next verse.

Quote:Upon Thomas' satisfaction, Jesus says, ""Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Thomas was in a unique situation, granted. But, so are we, in that God still offers us the Holy Spirit. Yes Jesus does commended those who can exist on just faith alone, but at the same time if you keep reading no where does he condemn those who as Thomas did need proof. Rather by this example we have God providing proof for the one who ask sought and knocked for it.

Quote:Yet, Jesus does not curse Thomas. Nor remove him from the Apostleship.
Because what he did was not a sin. Does Jesus even rebuke Thomas? No. He gives the man what he needed. This is the example of Thomas, not that what God did for Thomas was just for Thomas.
Thomas represents a very large part of humanity. It is to all the doubting Thomas' out there that Thomas was allowed to doubt and given what he needed.

Note the key to his victory was that he was faithful to what God gave him, and did not try and ignore or explain away what was done for him.

Quote:According to damn near everything you've posted, anyone who doesn't "choose" to believe is going to "hell".
and if after seeing what he saw, Thomas did not believe he would be in hell.

The Pharisees saw Christ as well before and after and they still did not believe, for them they demanded 'proof' but on their terms. What God offered was never accepted but explained away.

Quote:How do you reconcile this?
By showing you a common thread of those who needed proof, because they earnestly sought it (Thomas, Saul/Paul, and all of those who A/S/K who have come before and after us.) I don't know that I ever could be a blind faither. I need to Know, before I believe in anything. It is foolish to think that everyone who believes does so in a complete vacuum.[/quote]

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
Find all posts by this user
18-02-2014, 09:44 PM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
This is a match between Kestrel and Drich only. All other posts, comments, memes, jokes or whatever will be deleted. When the match is over, this thread will be closed.

Thank you.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

Find all posts by this user
19-02-2014, 04:12 AM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
Drich Wrote:Thomas was not 'fired' because God wanted to illustrate that he was willing to provide 'proof' for those who sought after it.

Nowhere does scripture allude to Thomas "seeking" anything. Thomas states his criteria but doesn't spend any time looking for it. Jesus had to go to him, as is clearly depicted.

Drich Wrote:Thomas was in a unique situation, granted. But, so are we, in that God still offers us the Holy Spirit.

It does not matter how unique Thomas’ situation was. Because a bible based believer acknowledges that:
"In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality." -Acts 10-34:35
Furthermore, the believer understands that Jesus shares this view. When in, Mar 12:14 the Pharisees inquire: 14    When they had come, they said to Him, "Teacher, we know that You are true, and care about no one; for You do not regard the person of men, but teach the way of God in truth.
(Emphasis mine)
Jesus does not correct them, when it comes to the point that he is no respecter of persons. Showing neither God or Jesus give a whit about anyone's "unique" situation.

Drich Wrote:...if you keep reading no where does he condemn those who as Thomas did need proof. Rather by this example we have God providing proof for the one who ask sought and knocked for it.

Again, Thomas wasn't seeking. In fact, Thomas is responsible for what I feel, is the most sarcastic declaration in scripture:
...  Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with Him." John 11:16

Yet again in john 14:5, we have Thomas inquiring of the pre-crucified Jesus, 5    Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?"

So when you, Drich, say:

Quote:Because what he did was not a sin. Does Jesus even rebuke Thomas? No. He gives the man what he needed. This is the example of Thomas, not that what God did for Thomas was just for Thomas.
Thomas represents a very large part of humanity. It is to all the doubting Thomas' out there that Thomas was allowed to doubt and given what he needed.

...given that Thomas’ position or situation is not regarded at all by either God or Jesus, it must apply to ALL that do not believe, or ask for evidence.
To put it another way, the God that you and I share would be truly unjust, if he gave to Thomas an opportunity that he denies the rest of us. And then, punishes us for.
Furthermore, if an individual’s eternal state being torment or reward, hinged upon making a choice to believe or not, then certainly in a book as large as the bible, this would be explicitly stated.

It's not even implied.

After all, if the book gets all worked up about the strict do’s and dont’s of the Jewish diet, certainly something as important as eternal torment requires the same attention.

But of course, Thomas’ fulfilled request will be given to all, as in Rom 14:11, it is explicitly stated that: For it is written: "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS TO GOD."

Which is only different from Rom 10:9, ...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
...because 10:9 relates to the living who have been elected for faith. While Rom 14:11 are for all others after the resurrection.

Drich Wrote:The Pharisees saw Christ as well before and after and they still did not believe, for them they demanded 'proof' but on their terms. What God offered was never accepted but explained away.
Indeed?
Other than Saul, of whom are you speaking?

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
Find all posts by this user
[+] 4 users Like Kestrel's post
19-02-2014, 11:08 AM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
In my efforts in attempting to be "kinder" and more patient toward my fellow believers, I resisted posting a knee-jerk response to one of your replies.
So,...after sitting on it all morning,

I am extending you the benefit of the doubt and ask that you "repair" the following quote by you:

Drich Wrote:By showing you a common thread of those who needed proof, because they earnestly sought it (Thomas, Saul/Paul, and all of those who A/S/K who have come before and after us.)

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
Find all posts by this user
19-02-2014, 11:10 AM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
(19-02-2014 04:12 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  Nowhere does scripture allude to Thomas "seeking" anything. Thomas states his criteria but doesn't spend any time looking for it. Jesus had to go to him, as is clearly depicted.
Not true. If he thought Christ was dead and these other 10 disciples were making stuff up then why was he with them? He was with them because they said Chrsit had appeared before them with a promise to return to them. Which means Thomas' presents with the other 10 was tantamount to him doing the only thing he could do to 'seek.'

Drich Wrote:Thomas was in a unique situation, granted. But, so are we, in that God still offers us the Holy Spirit.

Quote:It does not matter how unique Thomas’ situation was. Because a bible based believer acknowledges that:
"In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality." -Acts 10-34:35
Furthermore, the believer understands that Jesus shares this view. When in, Mar 12:14 the Pharisees inquire: 14    When they had come, they said to Him, "Teacher, we know that You are true, and care about no one; for You do not regard the person of men, but teach the way of God in truth.
(Emphasis mine)
Jesus does not correct them, when it comes to the point that he is no respecter of persons. Showing neither God or Jesus give a whit about anyone's "unique" situation.
What is your point here none of what you quoted, confirms, denies or conflicts with anything i have said.
I simply acknoweledge that Thomas was in a position to seek a physically risen Christ. we are not. However we have been given something just as conclusive in the Holy Spirit. Which again makes out situation unique to all who came before christ and to even those who live now and do not believe.
None of what you quoted does not change any of that as far as i can see.

Quote:Again, Thomas wasn't seeking. In fact,
See above

Quote:...given that Thomas’ position or situation is not regarded at all by either God or Jesus, it must apply to ALL that do not believe, or ask for evidence.
To put it another way, the God that you and I share would be truly unjust, if he gave to Thomas an opportunity that he denies the rest of us. And then, punishes us for.
Indeed, That is why we have been given the Holy Spirit, or at least an opperunity to A/S/K for the Holy Spirit. After all what better proof of God is there than God Himself?

Quote:Furthermore, if an individual’s eternal state being torment or reward, hinged upon making a choice to believe or not, then certainly in a book as large as the bible, this would be explicitly stated.

It's not even implied.
You do not seem to be aware of my position at this point in your arguement. are you still confused?

Quote:After all, if the book gets all worked up about the strict do’s and dont’s of the Jewish diet, certainly something as important as eternal torment requires the same attention.

But of course, Thomas’ fulfilled request will be given to all, as in Rom 14:11, it is explicitly stated that: For it is written: "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS TO GOD."

Which is only different from Rom 10:9, ...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
...because 10:9 relates to the living who have been elected for faith. While Rom 14:11 are for all others after the resurrection.
???? And?

Are you a Christian? You do know I am one as well right? if not what is with the supporting scripture? Your making my arguements for me.

Drich Wrote:The Pharisees saw Christ as well before and after and they still did not believe, for them they demanded 'proof' but on their terms. What God offered was never accepted but explained away.
Indeed?
Other than Saul, of whom are you speaking?
[/quote]
I am not speaking of Saul. i am speak of those who tested Christ, tried to trick him when He was asked about the woman caught in adultry, taxes, and healing on the sabbath etc.

I honestly think your lost in this conversation maybe go back and carfully read what I have already said.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
Find all posts by this user
19-02-2014, 11:15 AM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
(19-02-2014 11:08 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  In my efforts in attempting to be "kinder" and more patient toward my fellow believers, I resisted posting a knee-jerk response to one of your replies.
So,...after sitting on it all morning,

I am extending you the benefit of the doubt and ask that you "repair" the following quote by you:

Drich Wrote:By showing you a common thread of those who needed proof, because they earnestly sought it (Thomas, Saul/Paul, and all of those who A/S/K who have come before and after us.)

I just ran it through a spell check and do not see any errors so please if you feel the need to correct something then by all means fix it. Your not going to offend me or hurt my feelings.[/quote]

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
Find all posts by this user
19-02-2014, 05:37 PM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
Drich Wrote:... Which means Thomas' presents with the other 10 was tantamount to him doing the only thing he could do to 'seek.'

Then he would have been there the first time. Joh 20:24
What's more is that Thomas clearly wasn't concerned with "hell", for not believing. Is this too subtle a point for you?

Drich Wrote:What is your point here none of what you quoted, confirms, denies or conflicts with anything i have said.
Sure it does. You claimed Thomas' situation was "unique". I showed it doesn't matter.

Drich Wrote:You do know I am one as well right? if not what is with the supporting scripture? Your making my arguements for me.

My position argues against a "hell" that you keep pushing.

Drich Wrote:I am not speaking of Saul. i am speak of those who tested Christ, tried to trick him when He was asked about the woman caught in adultry, taxes, and healing on the sabbath etc.

That is not what you wrote.
You wrote;

Drich Wrote:The Pharisees saw Christ as well before and after and they still did not believe...

"before and after"
Would you like me to carry both sides of the debate?

But then, there's this;

Drich Wrote:I just ran it through a spell check and do not see any errors so please if you feel the need to correct something then by all means fix it.

Saul wasn't a partaker of your version of A/S/K.

You see, to Saul, A/S/K meant,
Acquire christian.
Stone christian until
Killed.

That you do not know that Saul persecuted believers, until Christs' intervention, is staggering in it's ignorance. Shocking
That twice, you declare Saul as following your bizarre acronym, as to why Saul became a believer, is a mistake only a narcoleptic 5th grade catechism student, distracted by the perky breasts his teacher, would possibly make.

If you don't know the origins of the apostle for the Gentiles, spell-check shouldn't even be on your radar.

----------------------------------------------

Since you're familiar with using a concordance / lexicon, as you've advised others to do, then you know that the word "hell" is a translator fabricated device.
In the KJV it is used roughly 54 times, each time translated from words that already have their own specific meaning. Denoting places, and/or states of mind.
Those words being, Hades, Sheole, gehenna.

How do you reconcile the abandonment of these original words, for a word that conveys an entirely different idea?

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
Find all posts by this user
[+] 5 users Like Kestrel's post
19-02-2014, 11:21 PM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
(19-02-2014 05:37 PM)Kestrel Wrote:  Then he would have been there the first time. Joh 20:24
why do you say that? Are you under the impression the others were seeking Christ at the time? My bible says they were cowering together because they feared the Jews. Probably because they were been accused of stealing the body of Christ, and their was a man hunt on. Then Jesus appeared to them showing them proof of who He was.

Quote:What's more is that Thomas clearly wasn't concerned with "hell", for not believing. Is this too subtle a point for you?
Laugh out load, so? I did not fear hell when I sought either.

Drich Wrote:What is your point here none of what you quoted, confirms, denies or conflicts with anything i have said.
Quote:Sure it does. You claimed Thomas' situation was "unique". I showed it doesn't matter.
Laugh out load so your saying anyone who want to put his finger in the side of Christ can do so? Or was Thomas' situation unique?

How old are you? It's like if I said the sky is blue you'd say, nut-huh and then cut and paste scripture that said it was red.

Quote:My position argues against a "hell" that you keep pushing.
what the 'hell' are you talking about?Rolleyes
Red herring much?

Drich Wrote:I am not speaking of Saul. i am speak of those who tested Christ, tried to trick him when He was asked about the woman caught in adultry, taxes, and healing on the sabbath etc.

Quote:That is not what you wrote.
You wrote;
omg..Saul was a Pharisee was he not? Did Saul ever confront Christ while he was alive the first time round? No? Then in that specific example I was not trying to lump Saul in with the group that did confront Christ.

Saul was a seperate example pertaining to the same topic.

Drich Wrote:The Pharisees saw Christ as well before and after and they still did not believe...

Quote:"before and after"
Would you like me to carry both sides of the debate?
it seems as if your having trouble with just the side your supposed to be managing.Rolleyes

Quote:But then, there's this;

Drich Wrote:I just ran it through a spell check and do not see any errors so please if you feel the need to correct something then by all means fix it.

Saul wasn't a partaker of your version of A/S/K.
Why did Saul persecute Christians? Because he was being faithful to what he understood God to want from him. He was simply following the law as he saw it. In essence he was doing absolutly everything he could do to honor and worship God in doing so he met the requirements outlined in Luke 11.
If I may borrow the following
"
You see, to Saul, A/S/K meant,
Acquire christian.
Stone christian until
Killed."

As per the outline given to use through the parable of the talents Saul was given 'X' talents and used everything he had to try and roll that talent over for his master. Granted if you are given 'z' talents you are not Going to be able to follow Paul's path and honor God the same way Paul did, with what he gave you.

I like Saul and like many of the 'atheist' here honor God with the one thing we all share. Our God given skepticism. Our disbelief in something just because it is popular to believe. Saul took his skeptisim and honored to the full extent that his faith allowed him, in what he thought to be service to God. He persecuted because He was seeking glory and honor for God, he simply did not know any better.

Now granted the line is a little thiner with atheists because what they honor is their God given ability to think and reason, but in its purest form if this is all they know to do, then this is all that can be done until they make a choice to take God up on his offer or not, once they have been made aware of it. Once the desision is made to honor themselves despite the offer of the Holy Spirit makes, then their worship of what God gave them becomes self worship.

Quote:That you do not know that Saul persecuted believers, until Christs' intervention, is staggering in it's ignorance. Shocking
That twice, you declare Saul as following your bizarre acronym, as to why Saul became a believer, is a mistake only a narcoleptic 5th grade catechism student, distracted by the perky breasts his teacher, would possibly make.
again, why did saul persecute Christians?was it because he was one of the Pharisees who fought with Christ in life and then after his death looked to stamp out 'the way?' Or was Paul simply being faithful to what he knew to be God's expressed will? And once corrected he took the mantel of Christ to the Gentiles? (Your answer is in acts 9)WinkTongue

Quote:If you don't know the origins of the apostle for the Gentiles, spell-check shouldn't even be on your radar.
and now?

----------------------------------------------

Quote:Since you're familiar with using a concordance / lexicon, as you've advised others to do, then you know that the word "hell" is a translator fabricated device.
In the KJV it is used roughly 54 times, each time translated from words that already have their own specific meaning. Denoting places, and/or states of mind.
Those words being, Hades, Sheole, gehenna.

How do you reconcile the abandonment of these original words, for a word that conveys an entirely different idea?
Have you ever been to California?

How would you describe it? As a desert, a place were dense Forrests reside a state that boarders the sea? Mountainous? Warm year round? Cold year round? Over populated, Barron, massive cities? Endless country side? Consertive, liberal?

What about all of the above? How can one reconcile all of these conflicting descriptions of one state and yet all of them still be true? In a word perspective. In the description above each description describes a different aspect of that state, like wise Each one of your hell words describes a different aspect of Hell. Very few if any one person can fully understand the depths of Hell, so the various writers were all given a piece.

The bible describes just [/quote]apart of hell as being a bottomless pit. It having no bottom would indicate at some point in space or time this one part of hell would exceed the total land mass of California. If Ca, can be described in so many different and conflicting ways, then in your opinion why can't hell be more that what you think it should be?

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
Find all posts by this user
Thread Closed 
Forum Jump: