Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
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19-02-2014, 11:23 PM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
Before you try and drag me deeper into hell I want to close the topic on Thomas and why he was not fired.

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20-02-2014, 03:54 AM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
Quote:why do you say that? Are you under the impression the others were seeking Christ at the time?

It is my response to your assertion that Thomas was "seeking". By showing Thomas wasn't always with the rest, which you used as a justification that Thomas was present because he was "seeking".

Quote:I did not fear hell when I sought either.

Thomas had direct proximity to Jesus and his teachings.

Quote:so your saying that anyone who want to put his finger in the side of Christ can do so?

No. What I'm saying is that the option to do so, is not available to someone who wishes to observe what they would consider proof-positive for themselves, before they believe.
Thomas was unique only because Jesus granted this specific proof to him without condemnation and in fact with satisfaction that Thomas then believed and acknowledged Jesus. Clearly illustrating that a bible based believer has no grounds to condemn a nonbeliever for requiring proof. What you go on to call a "red herring", is further scripturally supported basis that all people's requirement of proof will be eventually met. As Jesus doesn't find the request unreasonable.

Also, it is no small point that Jesus had to appear before the other apostles, as they did not believe Mary's report.

Quote:and now?
My first response is to say, "You're kidding."

But you're really not. You will twist anything into the most absurd pretzel, so as to avoid, the words, "I mis-spoke." Or heaven forbid, "I am wrong in this point.", etc.

So what you're telling me, is that Saul, through his Judaic practice, was seeking Christ and that his actions were/are acceptable to Jesus’.
Is that right?
Am I understanding you correctly?

Quote:Before you try and drag me deeper into hell I want to close the topic on Thomas and why he was not fired.

Fine.

My concluding synopsis on Thomas is that Jesus’ acceptance of Thomas’ belief after going to Thomas and fulfilling Thomas’ very specific requirements, sets the precedent that all people who do not believe are to be accorded the same treatment. This is in keeping with God and Jesus’ scripturally based position that they are no respecters of persons.
This also solidify’s and acknowledges scriptures declaration that faith is not a choice, but as Jesus declared: a blessing.
As such, the idea of a punishment for those that do not believe is not consistent with Jesus’ dealing with Thomas.

And that is the perfect segue into simultaneously dismantling your position of hell, while dragging you into it.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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20-02-2014, 07:05 AM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
Kestrel Wrote:Since you're familiar with using a concordance / lexicon, as you've advised others to do, then you know that the word "hell" is a translator fabricated device.
In the KJV it is used roughly 54 times, each time translated from words that already have their own specific meaning. Denoting places, and/or states of mind.
Those words being, Hades, Sheole, gehenna.

How do you reconcile the abandonment of these original words, for a word that conveys an entirely different idea?

Drich Wrote:Have you ever been to California?

How would you describe it? As a desert, a place were dense Forrests reside a state that boarders the sea? Mountainous? Warm year round? Cold year round? Over populated, Barron, massive cities? Endless country side? Consertive, liberal?

What about all of the above? How can one reconcile all of these conflicting descriptions of one state and yet all of them still be true? In a word perspective. In the description above each description describes a different aspect of that state, like wise Each one of your hell words describes a different aspect of Hell. Very few if any one person can fully understand the depths of Hell, so the various writers were all given a piece.

Your analogy proves my point.
California is a specific place, with a combination of associated attributes.

Just as are hades, Sheol & Gehenna, are their own places with their own attributes.

Drich Wrote:The bible describes ...... then in your opinion why can't hell be more that what you think it should be?

The word hell is in no manuscript. It is a fabrication of translators.

Produce an accepted manuscript with the word, hell and I'll concede the point.
If you are unable to do this, then you concede the point.

Is this unreasonable to you?

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20-02-2014, 08:19 AM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
(20-02-2014 03:54 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  It is my response to your assertion that Thomas was "seeking". By showing Thomas wasn't always with the rest, which you used as a justification that Thomas was present because he was "seeking".
Quote: But, again at that time, 'the rest were not seeking' They were hiding from the Jewish leadership. Thomas like them was most likly hiding as well, but in his own place. It wasn't till Christ appeared before the group (The remaining 10) that their gathering was a point for Thomas to seek. Once he learned of Christ's re appearance infront of them his presents with the remain 10 became a point of seeking.

[quote]I did not fear hell when I sought either.

[quote]Thomas had direct proximity to Jesus and his teachings.
So? Was Thomas in violation of Jesus' teachings at that point?
Was not being with the other 10 and hiding from the Jews who sought to kill them as a group a hell fire offense?

Quote:so your saying that anyone who want to put his finger in the side of Christ can do so?

Quote:No. What I'm saying is that the option to do so, is not available to someone who wishes to observe what they would consider proof-positive for themselves, before they believe.
Not true, Thomas All the other deciples except Peter "and the one Jesus loved" also Don't forget Paul, witnessed before they believed. Don't forget the two marys who went to perform the burial cermony they thought he was dead as well. basically the whole foundation of the Chruch got to get 'proof positive' before they believed.
On a much lessor note so did I, and I personally know of at least 3 others as well. that the events in our lives spawn a belief where there had only been anger.

That is not to say all of us in this group did not have to first do all that they could to A/S/K there was a measure of 'faith/mustard seed' involved, but as with the apstoles planting this seed is not something someone like you would recognise and deem acceptable as it does not conform to the pop christian norms you have made into christian law.

Quote:Thomas was unique
So... Thomas' situation was indeed unique? Do you want to retract your statement now? The one that says Thomas' statement was not unique?
Because no matter how you believe he was unique compared to what I said, bottom line I did point out that his situation was indeed unique, and you said it was not accross the board. Now you have appearently come to a different conclusion. the why is completely irrelevant.


Quote:only because Jesus granted this specific proof to him without condemnation and in fact with satisfaction that Thomas then believed and acknowledged Jesus.
What of Peter and john? the first part of chapter 20 is about them going to the tomb to get proof of Christ being taken. They thought he was taken not resurected. they believed he was taken themselves. Why else go home and leave mary tomb side weeping if thier faith had been justified?

Quote:Clearly illustrating that a bible based believer has no grounds to condemn a nonbeliever for requiring proof.
Again read the following carfully: This is what I teach! A non believer through what is said in Luke 11 can indeed A/S/K for proof FIRST. Then take himself though the rights and rituals of whatever version of christianity he wishes to be apart of.

Quote:What you go on to call a "red herring", is further scripturally supported basis that all people's requirement of proof will be eventually met. As Jesus doesn't find the request unreasonable.
Ahh, no. a Red Herring is when someone introduces another topic into a given conversation in order to try and distract or take focus away from the primary discussion. Say for instance: Let's pretend we were having a conversation about Doubting Thomas, and then one of us decides to bring up Hell as a way to distract from the orginal arguement, because that person does not want to argue it any longer because he see the inivetiable comming, and does not want to have to conceed his position.
So again, this person introduces another topic in hopes of taking attention away from the primary topic. That is a red herring. and it has ABSOLUTLY Nothing to do with what you said it did.

Quote:Also, it is no small point that Jesus had to appear before the other apostles, as they did not believe Mary's report.
Your making my arguement for me sport.
It seems you are so 'hell bent' on disagreeing with me you don't even recognise that we are on the same side of the arguement.

Quote:But you're really not. You will twist anything into the most absurd pretzel, so as to avoid, the words, "I mis-spoke." Or heaven forbid, "I am wrong in this point.", etc.
But I did not. I came to Christ in a similar way. I persecuted the christians around me. i did not stone anyone, but I did beat and torment them to the point where a few stayed as far away from me as possible.

I did this because it was all I knew to do. Like Paul he did what he did because it was all he knew to do.

I have been a christian for more than 20 years now. do you honestly think I never heard of Paul conversion or that I mispoke?

No. One of the very first things I clung to was the similarity between how I came to Christ and how Paul did. That is why i lumped him in with Thomas. Because he needed absolute proof to change his mind and direction just like I needed absolute proof, and got it as well.

Quote:So what you're telling me, is that Saul, through his Judaic practice, was seeking Christ and that his actions were/are acceptable to Jesus’.
Is that right?
Am I understanding you correctly?
Ahh, no. Not at all. What i said was Paul was faithful to his understanding of God to the point where it demanded the death of the heritics. Paul was trying to serve God with all that he had, God saw the zeal and passion and decided to re direct Him, by giving him proof before he believed in Christ that Chirst was indeed God. Once the transformation was complete Paul again was faithful to his understanding of God to the point of his death.

It was the act of praying (to find and kill the blasphemers) his efforts to seek them out across the country side and his persistance in doing this that God saw that his heart was in the right place but his actions were not consistant with what God wanted. So God set him straight and Paul remain faithful to his charge (to serve God with all that he had to give.)

Quote:My concluding synopsis on Thomas is that Jesus’ acceptance of Thomas’ belief after going to Thomas and fulfilling Thomas’ very specific requirements, sets the precedent that all people who do not believe are to be accorded the same treatment. This is in keeping with God and Jesus’ scripturally based position that they are no respecters of persons.
This also solidify’s and acknowledges scriptures declaration that faith is not a choice, but as Jesus declared: a blessing.
As such, the idea of a punishment for those that do not believe is not consistent with Jesus’ dealing with Thomas.

And that is the perfect segue into simultaneously dismantling your position of hell, while dragging you into it.
Again before we goto hell together please explain how this differs from my stated position.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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20-02-2014, 08:20 AM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
(20-02-2014 07:05 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  
Kestrel Wrote:Since you're familiar with using a concordance / lexicon, as you've advised others to do, then you know that the word "hell" is a translator fabricated device.
In the KJV it is used roughly 54 times, each time translated from words that already have their own specific meaning. Denoting places, and/or states of mind.
Those words being, Hades, Sheole, gehenna.

How do you reconcile the abandonment of these original words, for a word that conveys an entirely different idea?

Drich Wrote:Have you ever been to California?

How would you describe it? As a desert, a place were dense Forrests reside a state that boarders the sea? Mountainous? Warm year round? Cold year round? Over populated, Barron, massive cities? Endless country side? Consertive, liberal?

What about all of the above? How can one reconcile all of these conflicting descriptions of one state and yet all of them still be true? In a word perspective. In the description above each description describes a different aspect of that state, like wise Each one of your hell words describes a different aspect of Hell. Very few if any one person can fully understand the depths of Hell, so the various writers were all given a piece.

Your analogy proves my point.
California is a specific place, with a combination of associated attributes.

Just as are hades, Sheol & Gehenna, are their own places with their own attributes.

Drich Wrote:The bible describes ...... then in your opinion why can't hell be more that what you think it should be?

The word hell is in no manuscript. It is a fabrication of translators.

Produce an accepted manuscript with the word, hell and I'll concede the point.
If you are unable to do this, then you concede the point.

Is this unreasonable to you?

For everything there is a season. allow us to get through one before seeking the next.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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20-02-2014, 03:37 PM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
Drich Wrote:So... Thomas' situation was indeed unique? Do you want to retract your statement now? The one that says Thomas' statement was not unique?
Because no matter how you believe he was unique compared to what I said, bottom line I did point out that his situation was indeed unique, and you said it was not accross the board. Now you have appearently come to a different conclusion. the why is completely irrelevant.

This is actually a valid concern!! Good for you!! Or perhaps it's just the law of averages.
Either way, I'll address it for clarity.

When I declare Thomas as being unique, it is in the context of his proximity to Jesus and those teachings.
When I declare his position and circumstance not unique, it is within the biblical context of god & Jesus not being respecters of persons.
Is that clear for you now?

Drich Wrote:Again read the following carfully: This is what I teach! A non believer through what is said in Luke 11 can indeed A/S/K for proof FIRST. Then take himself though the rights and rituals of whatever version of christianity he wishes to be apart of.

What you "teach" is wrong.
Not my problem.

You insist on declaring that anyone can believe.

No one, who has no faith is going to inquire of something that they don't believe is going to hear them.
To do so, one must have faith that the inquiry will be heard.
Even if this hasn't been your personal experience, you do a tremendous amount of injustice to those who say they do not believe.

You go on and on in another thread, how you used to "persecute" Christians. But all your doing now is "persecuting" the ones who don't believe. The only difference being, you now justify your actions as a divine order.

So regardless of your stance, worldview or belief, a simple bully, you remain.
Fueled by an egocentric understanding of what you say you have faith in.
As a byproduct of your egocentric position, is your unbiblical stance that faith in Christ is an individual choice and hell is the consequence for not recognizing it.

Another indicator that you are wrong and that I may be correct, is the fact that Jesus didn't argue with the nonbeliever.
Only the self righteous, religious fools did he engage.

Think about it.
Bully for you.

Eh. Takes all kinds.

As far as further discussion on Thomas, I've given my final synopsis.

Shall we move on?

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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20-02-2014, 04:26 PM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
(20-02-2014 03:37 PM)Kestrel Wrote:  This is actually a valid concern!! Good for you!! Or perhaps it's just the law of averages.
Either way, I'll address it for clarity.

When I declare Thomas as being unique, it is in the context of his proximity to Jesus and those teachings.
When I declare his position and circumstance not unique, it is within the biblical context of god & Jesus not being respecters of persons.
Is that clear for you now?


So again how does this differ from my orginal statement? I said the same thing you just did orginally, and it was dismissed as being wrong. Then 2 or 3 pages later I get a condesending attitude for being right, and then you just parrot back what I orginally said. How does that work exactly?

Quote:What you "teach" is wrong.
Not my problem.
I am teaching the same thing you are, So If I am wrong, so to are you.

Quote:You insist on declaring that anyone can believe.
I can't believe that i would say that either.. Where do you think I said this?

Quote:No one, who has no faith is going to inquire of something that they don't believe is going to hear them.
But that's just it. Christ tells us we all have a mustard seed's worth of faith.

Quote:To do so, one must have faith that the inquiry will be heard.
Even if this hasn't been your personal experience, you do a tremendous amount of injustice to those who say they do not believe.
Again everyone has faith, we just put it in different things. Faith in science and logic is still faith. If one has spent his mustard seed on faith in science and logic all he need do is ask for another seed.

Quote:You go on and on in another thread, how you used to "persecute" Christians. But all your doing now is "persecuting" the ones who don't believe. The only difference being, you now justify your actions as a divine order.
How so?

Quote:So regardless of your stance, worldview or belief, a simple bully, you remain.
Without a doubt i know there are those who see me this way.. But they also saw Jesus, Paul and the Apstoles this way too. Why else do you think the were all eventually (save one) martyred?

Quote:Fueled by an egocentric understanding of what you say you have faith in.
Actual I'm not much on faith. My belief is based on evidence God has given me.

Quote:As a byproduct of your egocentric position, is your unbiblical stance that faith in Christ is an individual choice and hell is the consequence for not recognizing it.
WFT are you talking about? I do not preach faith. I teach belief through evidence.

Quote:Another indicator that you are wrong and that I may be correct, is the fact that Jesus didn't argue with the nonbeliever.
Only the self righteous, religious fools did he engage.
Facepalm So when Jesus said: "woe to you pharisee and makers of the law you hypocrites" Who was he speaking to? Where the Pharisees really believers in Christ, but... what?? They wanted to give Jesus a hard time?

ALL OF CHRIST ARGUEMENTS WERE WITH NON BELIEVERS!!!

Quote:Think about it.
Bully for you.

Eh. Takes all kinds.

As far as further discussion on Thomas, I've given my final synopsis.

Shall we move on?
Not till you have acknoweledge your complete failure here. i think the experience will be good for you. you need to see that when your WRONG as with the statement above (about Christ not ever argueing with non believers) your Jerks for Jesus comments you leave behind makes you look like a fool. And you need to see and accept the consenquences for your actions.

That is why i am suspending an new topics till you recant your crap teaching, appologise for your crap attitude, and foolish remarks, and answer each and every question i have asked.

I can truly understand why people are so hard on me. They think I am like you. that I do what I do without purpose nor honor. That I am here to glorify myself and my efforts.

On a side note I do want to thank you for holding up a mirror long enough to see my own short commings. It is becuse of your arrogance i will strive with all that is in me to change. I love the lost here looking for answers, but if they see me as I see you they will never know the difference between what you do here and what I am trying to do here.

Again for that thank you, and allow me to also thank you on behalf of those I will now be able to reach, that i would have just put off before.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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21-02-2014, 12:54 PM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
Comes on Kes you've got a dollar waiting on a dime... (Post something)

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
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21-02-2014, 02:42 PM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
Momsurroundedbyboys, I apologize to you for the inconvenience. Please close this thread.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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21-02-2014, 02:45 PM
RE: Drich & Gods Fondue Pot
Thread is now closed.


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