Drich, let's have a round
Thread Closed 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-02-2014, 10:22 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(09-02-2014 10:05 AM)Youkay Wrote:  
(09-02-2014 07:01 AM)Drich Wrote:  Simple observation. There is a religion dedicated to obtaining these qualities, (among others) through a series of disciplines, and rituals. Typically much hardship is endured before Spiritual fruit level 'enlightenment' is obtained. If these qualities were natural or a given as with Christianity, so much direction and effort would not be needed to hone in on these attributes.

In Christianity Paul tells us these are just evidences of one who has obtained the Holy Spirit. Not that we should work to obtain them.

So you claim knowledge that for me having love, joy, kindness and so on in my life was more difficult than for you. That is quite a condescending thing to say. But never mind that.

You said "simple observation". How can you tell that a person, who is not christian had a difficult time obtaining love, joy and kindness? What are the indicators/criteria for that observation?


As a specific example: How/according to which criteria do you compare two children and find that for the christian child it is easier to love his parents and have joy with his friends than for the non-christian child?

You miss understand. We all experience these emotions/qualities to one degree or another. This is not what I am talking about.
When the bible mentions spiritual fruit, it takes those basic attributes of man and elevates all of the qualities well beyond, the basic experience.

This is made evident that again an entire religion has dedicated itself to this specific form of enlightenment. It is a practice to hone our basic emotions and attributes well beyond our basic understanding of them.

What I have said is this is a given for those who receive the Holy Spirit. This is in contrast to The practice and dedication that Buddhists spend a life time or from their pov several lifetimes to perfect.

You can take great offense if you like, but understand that most would not argue that a Buddhist monk near total enlightenment experiences the above listed attributes on a higher plain than the average man does. I have said with no ill intent that this is 'enlightenment' concerning the list of spiritual fruit Paul gives us is given to the Christian and it does not have to be earned through self denial or any other prescribed method man has devised.
Find all posts by this user
09-02-2014, 10:31 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(09-02-2014 10:22 AM)Drich Wrote:  You miss understand. We all experience these emotions/qualities to one degree or another. This is not what I am talking about.
When the bible mentions spiritual fruit, it takes those basic attributes of man and elevates all of the qualities well beyond, the basic experience.

This is made evident that again an entire religion has dedicated itself to this specific form of enlightenment. It is a practice to hone our basic emotions and attributes well beyond our basic understanding of them.

What I have said is this is a given for those who receive the Holy Spirit. This is in contrast to The practice and dedication that Buddhists spend a life time or from their pov several lifetimes to perfect.

You can take great offense if you like, but understand that most would not argue that a Buddhist monk near total enlightenment experiences the above listed attributes on a higher plain than the average man does. I have said with no ill intent that this is 'enlightenment' concerning the list of spiritual fruit Paul gives us is given to the Christian and it does not have to be earned through self denial or any other prescribed method man has devised.

I understand. You don't mean to say that obtaining those emotions is more difficult, but experiencing them on a higher level only comes with religious practices.

So what elevates Christianity over Buddhism or other non-religious practices that teach discipline and inner peace?

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
Find all posts by this user
09-02-2014, 11:18 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
It's not that Christianity is better, it just in biblical Christianity these attributes are given out of the gate while others whole purpose of discipline and worship is to end with what we have been given up front. Again not that one is better than another concerning the quality of love or patience etc.. My pointing this out was only to illustrate or point to the contrast between one exhibiting spiritual fruit, and what one has to do to obtain an equal level of 'enlightenment' verses someone off the street who experiences these same emotions attributes
Find all posts by this user
09-02-2014, 12:12 PM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
So you are saying that in Christianity, besieging the holy spirit alone gives you this sort of "enlightenment", whereas non-religious techniques are kind of a more difficult route to the same result, yes?

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
Find all posts by this user
09-02-2014, 01:09 PM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(09-02-2014 12:12 PM)Youkay Wrote:  So you are saying that in Christianity, besieging the holy spirit alone gives you this sort of "enlightenment", whereas non-religious techniques are kind of a more difficult route to the same result, yes?

More or less... Yes
Find all posts by this user
09-02-2014, 06:47 PM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
How can you substantiate your claim that your easy route "enlightenment" through Christianity is on the same level as that through difficult non-religious methods?

Simple observation is not an acceptable method, because it is purely subjective, highly biased and wouldn't possibly allow you to access the "enlightenment" state of other people, so please do not use it to substantiate your claim again.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
Find all posts by this user
[+] 2 users Like Youkay's post
09-02-2014, 10:15 PM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(09-02-2014 06:47 PM)Youkay Wrote:  How can you substantiate your claim that your easy route "enlightenment" through Christianity is on the same level as that through difficult non-religious methods?

Simple observation is not an acceptable method, because it is purely subjective, highly biased and wouldn't possibly allow you to access the "enlightenment" state of other people, so please do not use it to substantiate your claim again.

You assume too much. I initially offered a simple observation as my first point of discussion, as I did not see a need to compare Spirit filled Christians with those who have obtained enlightment in a religious or non religious setting. why? because the question you asked did not need the references. It still doesn't. all their needs to be is a single parallel or contrast between those who first receive the Holy Spirit and those who are not Spirit filled, in their spiritual journey to enlightenment. Providing such a proof is not a difficult task, as all we need do is compare those who have been known to be enlightened from a Buddhist perspective to one who is starting out in Christianity. As both are well documented it would not be hard to find info on say a Stephen, barnabas or timothy who has been confirmed with the Holy Spirit, and someone at the end of their search for enlightenment, let's say a dalai lama.

Now pertaining to your challenge of an secularist (non-spiritual journey men) who has obtained any comparative stage of 'enlightenment' will be alittle harder. Why? because as far as western secular enlightenment is concerned it speaks to intellectual persuits and not to spiritual ones, as per the list provided in galations 5. There is a form of western spiritual enlightenment but it is based on the mechanics of Buddhism. As such it is disqualified as it pertains to an established faith and would be subject to the terms and conditions identified in spiritual/religious enlightenment. therefore it would still be classified as a religious form of enlightenment and the Christian/Dalai lama compareson would still be valid.

If it is your contention to argue that there is indeed an established form of secular enlightenment not based previously known religious beliefs, then the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence that this is an actual movement with no ties to any previously established religious works or activities. Otherwise your objection will be identified as a pompus appeal to a fallacy of false attribution, and be rightfully dismissed...
Now if you are done with your pissing contest and have any more questions you'd better get to them with in your next three responses. as I am allowing for limited follow ups. I agreed to this discussion on the primise that it would be focoused on a biblically based discussion and not flights of fancy concerning undocument secular movements that just so happen to support your argument, but can not be verified..

Drinking Beverage

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
Find all posts by this user
10-02-2014, 12:48 AM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2014 03:54 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Drich, let's have a round
I am not assuming anything. I am only trying to understand your convoluted explanations and questioning your claims. So far, I restrained from even making a single argument. So I have no idea how you could possibly say something like "undocument secular movements that just so happen to support your argument, but can not be verified..".



You said that states of "enlightenments" are well documented, both for Christians and for those that follow Buddhist philosophy. This leads us back to my previous question again. How can you or anybody for that reason access the state of "enlightenment" of any other person? What are the criteria to have any means of measure, so that a comparison can be made possible?

You also mentioned "people who have been confirmed with the holy spirit". How can you -or anybody for that matter- confirm that? How can you tell? Which criteria do you use?



PS: 1) we didn't start of with a premise that our discussion would be focused on the bible. Also, I am merely reacting to whatever "inconsistency" I think there is to your claims. You, on the other hand, are the one giving direction to this conversaion and setting the tone.

2) initially, we agreed to the premise that a claim needs to be substantiated with AT LEAST a good argument or explanation. Evidence and proof are not necessary. The fact that each of your "answers" leads to at least another question shows that the claim was not substantiated sufficiently. If you feel like you can not explain yourself convincingly enough (and I am giving you AMPLE opportunity to do so. In fact, all I do is giving you opportunities to substantiate your many claims) you are free to leave this conversation whenever you like.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
Find all posts by this user
10-02-2014, 12:14 PM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
This counts as one of three follow up posts I am willing to indulge the 4th needs to be back on topic.
(10-02-2014 12:48 AM)Youkay Wrote:  I am not assuming anything.
Not true. You assumed my position/simple observation was unverifiable. Then you proceeded to dictate terms on my use of said observation. When in fact you did not have a complete understanding of what I had 'simply' observed.

Quote:I am only trying to understand your convoluted explanations and questioning your claims. So far, I restrained from even making a single argument.
Not true again. you did not question the claim in your last post. You asserted that the claim was not valid, which is the beginnings of an arguement if i disagree. i have stated that i disagreed with your assessment. therefore the classification of your last post as a arguement stands.

Quote:So I have no idea how you could possibly say something like "undocument secular movements that just so happen to support your argument, but can not be verified..".
because you said:
Quote:How can you substantiate your claim that your easy route "enlightenment" through Christianity is on the same level as that through difficult non-religious methods?

there is no documented secular method of obtaining enlightenment aside from the two forms i have listed. (per the first 5 pages of a google search) The first form of secular enlightenment was based on intelectual persuits, which has nothing to do with the discussion on Spiritual fruit, and the other secular method is based on buddhism which is a religious form of enlightment.

Again it is because you said "Non-religious methods of enlightenment," and because there is no such documented form of this type of enlightenment I made the statement you seem to have confused yourself with.

Quote:You said that states of "enlightenments" are well documented, both for Christians and for those that follow Buddhist philosophy. This leads us back to my previous question again. How can you or anybody for that reason access the state of "enlightenment" of any other person?
It is made evident through their philosphies, works and teachings. otherwise Buddhism would have died with buddha.

Quote:What are the criteria to have any means of measure, so that a comparison can be made possible?
Did you not read my last post in it's entirity? Or are you not aware that a high level of enlightment is a common trait between the vasious Daili Lamas? My intrest is not building an enlightment meter for you. but to compare known examples (By known I mean verified examples of people with in that system of belief who have been up held by believers of a given faith as being enlightened or Spirit filled.)

Quote:You also mentioned "people who have been confirmed with the holy spirit". How can you -or anybody for that matter- confirm that? How can you tell? Which criteria do you use?
As the bible is the standard to determined the Holy Spirit to begin with, it will be used to determine who among early/young believers where indeed Spirit filled. (Timothy, Barnabas, Stephen ect.) we know they were spirit filled because the apstoles themselves identified them as such... Again I am not looking to reinvent the wheel here for you, but to use existing confirmed examples.


Quote:PS: 1) we didn't start of with a premise that our discussion would be focused on the bible. Also, I am merely reacting to whatever "inconsistency" I think there is to your claims. You, on the other hand, are the one giving direction to this conversaion and setting the tone.
i am telling you these are my terms.

Quote:2) initially, we agreed to the premise that a claim needs to be substantiated with AT LEAST a good argument or explanation. Evidence and proof are not necessary. The fact that each of your "answers" leads to at least another question shows that the claim was not substantiated sufficiently. If you feel like you can not explain yourself convincingly enough (and I am giving you AMPLE opportunity to do so. In fact, all I do is giving you opportunities to substantiate your many claims) you are free to leave this conversation whenever you like.
Indeed, which will be by your 4th post concerning buddhism/Enlightenment if we do not get back on track. I have no desire to discuss other religions. I am not here hold them up nor to put them down. However This is what I see happening if we stay on this road much longer. all I am asking is we stick to Christianity.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
Find all posts by this user
10-02-2014, 09:17 PM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2014 11:01 PM by Youkay.)
RE: Drich, let's have a round
Youkay Wrote:So you are saying that in Christianity, besieging the holy spirit alone gives you this sort of "enlightenment", whereas non-religious techniques are kind of a more difficult route to the same result, yes?
Drich Wrote:More or less... Yes
Youkay Wrote:How can you substantiate your claim that your easy route "enlightenment" through Christianity is on the same level as that through difficult non-religious methods?

- I asked questions to understand your position
- you confirmed that my understanding is more or less correct
- I asked a question related to the confirmed understanding


When you go back and have a look at our converstation, you will find that your initial claim was that the bible is credible, because it promised you something, with which it rewarded you when you became a christian. At the beginning of our conversation, you stated that something to be "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control". Later you changed it to "the ability to experience those emotions at a higher level" (compared to non-christians) and finally you gave it the name "spiritual enlightenment".

My questions aim to understand how you KNOW that you have been enlightened and how you KNOW that someone who is not Christian isn't.




(10-02-2014 12:14 PM)Drich Wrote:  My intrest is not building an enlightment meter for you. but to compare known examples (By known I mean verified examples of people with in that system of belief who have been up held by believers of a given faith as being enlightened or Spirit filled.)

Either you are not understanding the question or you are intentionally dodging it.

How are people/"the believers" able to tell if someone is enlightened or not? What makes someone observably enlightened, so "the believers" can recognize such?
Maybe you will need some examples to understand what my question is aiming at:
Is having profound knowledge and understanding of nature considered being enlightened?
Is having profound knowledge and understanding of human emotions considered being enlightened?
Is being able feel vast amounts of "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" considered being enlightened?




Youkay Wrote:You also mentioned "people who have been confirmed with the holy spirit". How can you -or anybody for that matter- confirm that? How can you tell? Which criteria do you use?

Drich Wrote:As the bible is the standard to determined the Holy Spirit to begin with, it will be used to determine who among early/young believers where indeed Spirit filled. (Timothy, Barnabas, Stephen ect.) we know they were spirit filled because the apstoles themselves identified them as such...

In essence, you say that the bible promises "a measure of the holy spirit", and based on the bible we can tell that A, B and C were granted "a measure of the holy spirit". I wanted to avoid that you would make such a circular argument, so I asked:

How can YOU tell/confirm if anybody has a "measure of the holy spirit" inside? By looking? By feeling? By confirming that that person is christian? How?




Youkay Wrote:PS: 1) we didn't start of with a premise that our discussion would be focused on the bible. Also, I am merely reacting to whatever "inconsistency" I think there is to your claims. You, on the other hand, are the one giving direction to this conversaion and setting the tone.
Drich Wrote:i am telling you these are my terms.
It is a little bit too late for that. You wrote a PM to me that you accept my "terms" without any further specifications. But after you have addressed my questions, I would be VERY HAPPY to finally leave this area of "enlightenment", which YOU brought up.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
Find all posts by this user
[+] 3 users Like Youkay's post
Thread Closed 

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one Jeremy E Walker 28 770 04-07-2014 09:23 AM
Last Post: Revenant77x
  Drich, Answers to my questions Mathilda 216 5,479 23-04-2014 05:44 AM
Last Post: Drich
  Drich & Gods Fondue Pot Kestrel 19 551 21-02-2014 02:45 PM
Last Post: Momsurroundedbyboys
  Practice round. Stark Raving 6 491 31-10-2012 06:19 PM
Last Post: Stark Raving
Forum Jump: