Drich, let's have a round
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11-02-2014, 07:21 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(10-02-2014 09:17 PM)Youkay Wrote:  - I asked questions to understand your position
- you confirmed that my understanding is more or less correct
- I asked a question related to the confirmed understanding
1/2 truth as this only repersents a portion of your interaction with me. You also formulated an arguement based on incomplete information. formed a charge in that there is no way i could know the thing I presented, then made a declaration telling me that I would not be able to use my observations to support my arguement based on what you had assumed. Now your engaged in some back tracking to try and salvage your efforts...

Quote:When you go back and have a look at our converstation, you will find that your initial claim was that the bible is credible, because it promised you something, with which it rewarded you when you became a christian.
indeed.

Quote:At the beginning of our conversation, you stated that something to be "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control". Later you changed it to "the ability to experience those emotions at a higher level" (compared to non-christians) and finally you gave it the name "spiritual enlightenment".
Actually I posted Galations 5 (which you seem to take great offense against.) and refered to these attributes as Spiritual fruit, as this is how these attributes are identified in Gal 5. However infact I did compare these same attibutes to some of the desired elements of the Enlightenment found in Buddhism. I then made the effort to meet you in the middle because of your reluctance to use the biblical term/fruit. So i combined the two terms where they shared common goals. "Fruit of the Spirit, and The buddhist version of Enlightenment"= Spiritual enlightenment.

Quote:My questions aim to understand how you KNOW that you have been enlightened and how you KNOW that someone who is not Christian isn't.
Then why didn't you ask this from the beginning?

I spent the first half of my life and did not know God. My mother came to this country as a buddhist, and my father startes out life as a christian by name but soon addopted 'spirituality' instead (as spirituality has no rules against the things he wanted to do with his life.) So out side of a few dozen trips to a korean speaking (only) church, and the faith healers on TV that is really the only Christian influence I can remember. My grandparents tried to put me in a Christian school, but was asked to leave after a few years as they were not equipt to handle 'special needs.' From what I remember there the only difference was we prayed before we started class, before we ate, and we had story time which was OT stories before we had our naps.. (I made it thru the 2nd grade..

By the 3rd or 4th grade i experienced so 'bad stuff' and I began to question God. I got nothing back. By highschool I hated God, and looked to argue and persecute Christians. My spiritual awaking happened as per my thread in the theism subforum says and i bacame a Christian in 96/97ish. (acouple years after highschool, I was in my twenties.)

So how do I know I was given Spiritual fruit, that As an unbeliever I did not have these attributes? Because I experienced the Change myself. I know who I was and what I have become.



(10-02-2014 12:14 PM)Drich Wrote:  My intrest is not building an enlightment meter for you. but to compare known examples (By known I mean verified examples of people with in that system of belief who have been up held by believers of a given faith as being enlightened or Spirit filled.)

Quote:Either you are not understanding the question or you are intentionally dodging it.
Not true. You have just closed you mind to all other answers than the ones your prepared to argue. Your not looking to how what i have said here could apply to your question. You just want a stock answer that requires little to no thought on your part so you can give a stock response.
Observe:
Quote:How are people/"the believers" able to tell if someone is enlightened or not? What makes someone observably enlightened, so "the believers" can recognize such?
You are looking for a method of detection. Hence my answer:"I am not here to build you an enlightenment meter so you can detect these things." What I do offer is the identification of those who claim to be the most enlightened amongest all buddhist, and those who per the Apostles who started and passed on Christianity have identified as being filled with the Spirit. Out of that group of founding father's of Christianity there are a few who were recently converted, and yet have been filled with the Spirit which would have them exhibit Spiritual fruit as per Gal 5.

Again with this certfication of enlightment and Spirit filled believers no other method of detection is needed. Why? Because if you doubt either of these two sources the conversation is over and there is nothing left to discuss.

Quote:In essence, you say that the bible promises "a measure of the holy spirit", and based on the bible we can tell that A, B and C were granted "a measure of the holy spirit". I wanted to avoid that you would make such a circular argument, so I askedHow can YOU tell/confirm if anybody has a "measure of the holy spirit" inside? By looking? By feeling? By confirming that that person is christian? How?:
How can I tell? Because again I experienced it for myself. How can I tell in others? Because they themselves exhibit Spiritual fruit. That is why they call it Spiritual fruit. Fruit is a sure fire method you can tell what kind of tree something is.

How can one tell that the Christian exhibits a greater capasity for these common traits than another man or woman. Observation. You would have to know the Christian and this other person closly, but seperate yourself from any emotional attachment from either. That is why I offered to compare known examples of both (young members of the 1st century church and the Dalai lama)

That way emotions and personal predijuce can be eliminated in the 'fruit' inspection.




Youkay Wrote:PS: 1) we didn't start of with a premise that our discussion would be focused on the bible. Also, I am merely reacting to whatever "inconsistency" I think there is to your claims. You, on the other hand, are the one giving direction to this conversaion and setting the tone.
Drich Wrote:i am telling you these are my terms.
It is a little bit too late for that. You wrote a PM to me that you accept my "terms" without any further specifications. But after you have addressed my questions, I would be VERY HAPPY to finally leave this area of "enlightenment", which YOU brought up.

[/quote]Quite honestly i don't care if you feel it is too late to amend what you think are rules here. As i have no stake in this conversation what so ever. I made a mission statement when I first joined this forum and it is to this statement that determine my actions here. I am to answer biblically based questions and to provide clarity on the same. I am not here to win arguements, nor tear down the faith or beliefs of another, my purpose here is to help people make desisions concerning these things. If the choice has been made then so be it. I believe God has given us this right to choose. If you have made your choice that God gave you who am I to say you made the wrong one? This conversation is headed in that direction. (I know this because I have had this conversation many times before.) As a result you have one more allowance for a follow up on this topic, then i will give you an oppertunity to return to a biblicaly based conversation or i will end this conversation, and you may claim your victory. So, if you have a point, and you want my input, make make that point quickly.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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11-02-2014, 09:38 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
I am simply asking questions. I don't make a point, nor do I try to make a point. If I happened to make a claim, you would be perfectly eligible to call me out on that claim. Please don't be so paranoid.

This whole thing with "enlightenment" leads us into a dead end (circular end, to be perfectly honest). So let me try to get away from there. Please show humility and close that chapter with me.




You say the bible promised you something and rewarded you with the very same thing later on. For the sake of "argument", I will assume that I believe your personal experience to be true. (I do not mean offense)

Does one full-filled promise automatically make the entirety of the biblical content true/credible?

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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11-02-2014, 11:19 PM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(11-02-2014 09:38 AM)Youkay Wrote:  I am simply asking questions. I don't make a point, nor do I try to make a point. If I happened to make a claim, you would be perfectly eligible to call me out on that claim. Please don't be so paranoid.

This whole thing with "enlightenment" leads us into a dead end (circular end, to be perfectly honest). So let me try to get away from there. Please show humility and close that chapter with me.




You say the bible promised you something and rewarded you with the very same thing later on. For the sake of "argument", I will assume that I believe your personal experience to be true. (I do not mean offense)

Does one full-filled promise automatically make the entirety of the biblical content true/credible?

Chapter closed mutually. And no one full filled promise does not mean the whole bible is true, but it got my attention, and I sought out other places to test the bible. This lead me to spiritual gifts. Do you want scripture that describes the gifts?

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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12-02-2014, 12:23 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(11-02-2014 11:19 PM)Drich Wrote:  And no, one full filled promise does not mean the whole bible is true, but it got my attention

Are you saying that there is a possibility that the bible is false?

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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12-02-2014, 07:54 PM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(12-02-2014 12:23 AM)Youkay Wrote:  
(11-02-2014 11:19 PM)Drich Wrote:  And no, one full filled promise does not mean the whole bible is true, but it got my attention

Are you saying that there is a possibility that the bible is false?

One fulfilled promise in of itself in not proof of nor disproves anything. As that single promise can be dismissed as a fluke. As I said the first fulfilled promise got my attention. So I strove to complete other 'asks' God would have me do, to see what else he would bring into my life. That is why My belief in the bible is based off a pattern of predictable action and consequence, based on what the bible says.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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12-02-2014, 08:55 PM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
Glad that we agree. So what else convinced you that the bible is credible?

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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13-02-2014, 08:34 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
From receiving of Spiritual fruit if a brother is responsiable with his gift, and heeds the call to Christ he will want to confess his sin, repent and be baptized. Upon doing so the A/S/K process firmly turns to seeking. Through Seeking by going to church and reading the bible one will start to see need or deficiency in his life, the church or in the world in general. If we can see a need then usally we are called to fill that need. Even if we do not have the resources within us currently, we must be willing to serve as the need requires and God through Spiritual gifts will give us what we need to fill that need.

I have several personal examples i can share the will demonstrate this process.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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13-02-2014, 10:22 PM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
Can you please try to formulate your thoughts in a more brief and essential format, in order to avoid confusion and me always first confirming if I understood you correctly?

From what I read I understood this:

Me: What else (other than the spiritual fruit) conviced you that the bible is credible?

You: After you receive the spiritual fruit, you will want to confess your sin. You will start seeking and feel a deficiancy in your life, that you will want to fill. And God will fill that need through spiritual gifts.

Is that correct?

I am sure I misunderstood, because you make god sound like a drug dealer. First he gives you a "spiritual fruit", which will later make you crave more "spiritual gifts".


But seriously, I don't see how your response is an answer to my question. What else (other than the spiritual fruit) conviced you that the bible is credible?

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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14-02-2014, 10:38 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(13-02-2014 10:22 PM)Youkay Wrote:  Can you please try to formulate your thoughts in a more brief and essential format, in order to avoid confusion and me always first confirming if I understood you correctly?

From what I read I understood this:

Me: What else (other than the spiritual fruit) conviced you that the bible is credible?

You: After you receive the spiritual fruit, you will want to confess your sin. You will start seeking and feel a deficiancy in your life, that you will want to fill. And God will fill that need through spiritual gifts.

Is that correct?

I am sure I misunderstood, because you make god sound like a drug dealer. First he gives you a "spiritual fruit", which will later make you crave more "spiritual gifts".


But seriously, I don't see how your response is an answer to my question. What else (other than the spiritual fruit) conviced you that the bible is credible?
Spiritual fruit in essence is an eye opening experience. I don't know if you have ever dealt with someone who has only known poverty, and one specific way of life. Then you try and introduce them to some of the mod/cons you enjoy. There can be some initial reluctance to trying something new. There can even be a stubbornness or pride to retain the way of life that has sustained them up to this point. Receiving spiritual fruit from the Holy Spirit was like walking into an air conditioned room for the first time. One's capacity to exist and tolerate others greatly increase, when one's own needs and comfort level has been met.

Not that a man who has not ever experienced A/C could not walk away from it never to experience it again, but even so it is an eye opening experience. Once your told this is just the tip of the iceberg, one generally wants to see and experience more first hand.

To do so, is to follow the path Christ lays out, in the repentance/baptism/forgiveness of sin. Then come the Spiritual gifts. These gifts are the next step in the affirmation that the bible is God's truth. Then if we are faithful more is to come..

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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14-02-2014, 11:05 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
What is sin?

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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