Drich, let's have a round
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14-02-2014, 08:46 PM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(14-02-2014 11:05 AM)Youkay Wrote:  What is sin?

Any activity or thought outside of God providential allowance or expressed will.

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14-02-2014, 09:23 PM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
And how do we know "god's providential allowance or expressed will"?

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14-02-2014, 10:34 PM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(14-02-2014 09:23 PM)Youkay Wrote:  And how do we know "god's providential allowance or expressed will"?

The bible.

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14-02-2014, 10:46 PM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
The very same bible, we set out to confirm its truthfulness and credibility to begin with?

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14-02-2014, 11:04 PM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
I don't know if you are aware of what you are doing:

First you said the bible is true, because you were given a "spiritual fruit" gift. We went down this path, and finally agreed that it leads us to a dead end. Mostly because your argument was based on personal experiences that can not be comprehended or compared by others (because we do not share consciousness).

Later you said that the "spiritual fruit" and the way it makes you feel good does not necessarily mean that the bible is true.

Next you say the bible is true, because when you repent your sins, you are given "spiritual gifts". I can already foretell that it will lead us the very same dead end. All you will have to show are your personal experiences.

I can also tell that later you will say that "spiritual gifts" and the way it makes you feel good does not necessarily mean that the bible is true.




I'm really trying to get away from this sort of logical fallacy, in which you insist that sharing your personal experience would be a good argument to substantiate your position. It isn't. I could tell you about my personal experiences, and you wouldn't care to hear about it. because there would be no way for me to substantiate my position to you by sharing my personal experiences, because you do not share my consciousness and therefore can not know if I am truthful. (If you disagree, please invite me to share my personal experiences with you)




So let me try to get away from there again by asking:

Let us take Islam. There are Muslim people who are just as convinced that upon truly and fully entering and accepting Islam, they get a "spiritual gift", that makes them enlightened.

Or if you object Islam, we could even use Scientologists or Mormons as an example. It doesn't matter which religion we take as an example. There are always people who are just as convinced that upon truly and fully entering and accepting their religion, they get a "spiritual gift", that makes them enlightened.



What is your argument as to why those people are wrong, but you are right? Or is everybody right?

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15-02-2014, 07:33 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(14-02-2014 10:46 PM)Youkay Wrote:  The very same bible, we set out to confirm its truthfulness and credibility to begin with?
the very same.

If you wanted to test a theory published in a paper would you not use the guidelines in said paper to outline define your experiment? Or would you seek what another source had to say? If you did the later then you would not be testing the orginal theory published.

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15-02-2014, 07:50 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
[/quote]
(14-02-2014 11:04 PM)Youkay Wrote:  I don't know if you are aware of what you are doing:

First you said the bible is true, because you were given a "spiritual fruit" gift. We went down this path, and finally agreed that it leads us to a dead end.
You said it was a dead end and I agreed to let it go.

Quote:Mostly because your argument was based on personal experiences that can not be comprehended or compared by others (because we do not share consciousness).
This is true, but this is also true with most personal relationships. Evidences and a paper trail is not the goal of a personal relationship of any real relationship.

Quote:Later you said that the "spiritual fruit" and the way it makes you feel good does not necessarily mean that the bible is true.
Again no. I said "one fullfilled promise does not make the whole bible true." then I pointed to a whole quiver of fullfilled promises of which you seem to be afraid to explore, deciding to consentrate on elementry philosphy, and how it can be made to apply here.

Quote:Next you say the bible is true, because when you repent your sins, you are given "spiritual gifts". I can already foretell that it will lead us the very same dead end. All you will have to show are your personal experiences.
Strawman much? Where did I say this? i said that upon receiving spiritual gifts, It sparked my intrest to see what else is true. In order to do this I had to meet the requirments outlined in scripture. I did, and I received what was promised. In abundance..

Quote:I can also tell that later you will say that "spiritual gifts" and the way it makes you feel good does not necessarily mean that the bible is true.
Your attempt to trivialize my experiences, has falsified your whole critical thinking process. You have had to appeal to logical fallacy in each and every statement you have made in this post. Are you aware of this? does this concern you in anyway, or is your mind truly closed to anything you do not already accept to be true?



Quote:I'm really trying to get away from this sort of logical fallacy,
Laugh out load Which logcal fallacy would that be? (they have names, pick one.)

Quote:in which you insist that sharing your personal experience would be a good argument to substantiate your position.
If I and 10 other people said there is a homeless looking man who sits in central park in Ny city who will pay all of your bills if you ask to buy him a cup of coffie...

Now would absolutly everything we had to say about this man be based on personal experience? Do this invalidate the man, the truth of the fact that he paid all of our bills when we offered to buy him a cup of coffie? No absolutly not. Why? because truth is not changed by how it is presented. In the ned personal experience is indeed a valid way of relaying an experience especially if one can simply proceed down a perscribed path and verify the truth for Himself.

Quote: It isn't. I could tell you about my personal experiences, and you wouldn't care to hear about it. because there would be no way for me to substantiate my position to you by sharing my personal experiences, because you do not share my consciousness and therefore can not know if I am truthful. (If you disagree, please invite me to share my personal experiences with you)
not a valid compareson as your experiences are not up to be relived by anyone.



Quote:So let me try to get away from there again by asking:

Let us take Islam. There are Muslim people who are just as convinced that upon truly and fully entering and accepting Islam, they get a "spiritual gift", that makes them enlightened.
Quote:can you provide some sort of text to substaintiate your claim?
[quote]
Or if you object Islam, we could even use Scientologists or Mormons as an example. It doesn't matter which religion we take as an example. There are always people who are just as convinced that upon truly and fully entering and accepting their religion, they get a "spiritual gift", that makes them enlightened.



What is your argument as to why those people are wrong, but you are right? Or is everybody right?
Again let look at thier text and then we can walk down that road together

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15-02-2014, 09:32 AM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2014 10:40 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Drich, let's have a round
Drich Wrote:To do so, is to follow the path Christ lays out, in the repentance/baptism/forgiveness of sin. Then come the Spiritual gifts. These gifts are the next step in the affirmation that the bible is God's truth.
Youkay Wrote:Next you say the bible is true, because when you repent your sins, you are given "spiritual gifts".
Drich Wrote:Strawman much? Where did I say this?

There.


Youkay Wrote:I could tell you about my personal experiences, and you wouldn't care to hear about it. because there would be no way for me to substantiate my position to you by sharing my personal experiences, because you do not share my consciousness and therefore can not know if I am truthful.
Drich Wrote:not a valid comparison as your experiences are not up to be relived by anyone.

I do not understand what you mean. Are your experiences up to be relived by anyone? And how do you know that my experiences are not up to be relived by anyone?



Quote::Laugh out loud: Which logcal fallacy would that be? (they have names, pick one.)

Anecdotal evidence.

Drich Wrote:You have had to appeal to logical fallacy in each and every statement you have made in this post. Are you aware of this? does this concern you in anyway, or is your mind truly closed to anything you do not already accept to be true?

Actually, it is you who should be concerned that you commit this fallacy in every post you make, not I who call you out on that.



Youkay Wrote:Let us take Islam. There are Muslim people who are just as convinced that upon truly and fully entering and accepting Islam, they get a "spiritual gift", that makes them enlightened.
Or if you object to Islam, we could even use Scientologists or Mormons as an example. It doesn't matter which religion we take as an example. There are always people who are just as convinced that upon truly and fully entering and accepting their religion, they get a "spiritual gift", that makes them enlightened.

What is your argument as to why those people are wrong, but you are right? Or is everybody right?
Drich Wrote:can you provide some sort of text to substantiate your claim?

Which claim? That there are religious people who think that when they truly and fully enter and accept their religion, they are rewarded with "spiritual gifts" and "enlightenment"? What kind of "text" do you expect that would substantiate that there are people who think this? A survey? A newspaper article? I don't know what kind of "text" you require.
If you expect a "text", give me a "text" that substantiates your claim, so I can better understand what you are looking for. I didn't ask for it initially, because I didn't think a "text" is appropriate to substantiate your personal experience.

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15-02-2014, 11:26 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(15-02-2014 09:32 AM)Youkay Wrote:  
Drich Wrote:To do so, is to follow the path Christ lays out, in the repentance/baptism/forgiveness of sin. Then come the Spiritual gifts. These gifts are the next step in the affirmation that the bible is God's truth.
Youkay Wrote:Next you say the bible is true, because when you repent your sins, you are given "spiritual gifts".
Drich Wrote:Strawman much? Where did I say this?

youkay Wrote:There.
Again no. I made no such assertion, which is what makes your summary at best a strawman. I said Spiritual gifts were apart of a larger process, not difinitive proof in of itself, as you have indicated.


Youkay Wrote:I could tell you about my personal experiences, and you wouldn't care to hear about it. because there would be no way for me to substantiate my position to you by sharing my personal experiences, because you do not share my consciousness and therefore can not know if I am truthful.
Drich Wrote:not a valid comparison as your experiences are not up to be relived by anyone.

Quote:I do not understand what you mean. Are your experiences up to be relived by anyone? And how do you know that my experiences are not up to be relived by anyone?
I have always said there is nothing special about me. What I have experienced is offered to Everyone who will A/S/K as I did/outlined in Luke11.

Your experiences are your own and are unique to you. My experiences are just my personal testimony as to how God interacted with me. In Luke 11 He promises an interaction with the Holy Spirit to each person who A/S/K as the persistant neighbor did in the parable Christ told. In essence EVERYONE has access to Spiritual Fruit if they will simply follow the instructions given by God.


Quote:[quote]:Laugh out loud: Which logcal fallacy would that be? (they have names, pick one.)

Quote:Anecdotal evidence.
Ahh, no. This may sound like it wouls support your assertion on the surface, but if you look up the defination, you will find it does not.

"Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.[1][2] Anecdotal evidence is considered dubious support of a claim; it is accepted only in lieu of more solid evidence. This is true regardless of the veracity of individual claims"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

Why does this assessment fail? Because Again God offers these 'experiences' to EVERYONE who A/S/K, and 'proof' is not contengent on my experience alone.

Quote:Actually, it is you who should be concerned that you commit this fallacy in every post you make, not I who call you out on that.
Then please as i have shown you where you have exhibited fallacious reasoning, show me where my fallacies in logic are so i may address them.



Youkay Wrote:Let us take Islam. There are Muslim people who are just as convinced that upon truly and fully entering and accepting Islam, they get a "spiritual gift", that makes them enlightened.
Or if you object to Islam, we could even use Scientologists or Mormons as an example. It doesn't matter which religion we take as an example. There are always people who are just as convinced that upon truly and fully entering and accepting their religion, they get a "spiritual gift", that makes them enlightened.

What is your argument as to why those people are wrong, but you are right? Or is everybody right?
Drich Wrote:can you provide some sort of text to substantiate your claim?

Quote:Which claim?
Let's start with this one.:
Quote:There are Muslim people who are just as convinced that upon truly and fully entering and accepting Islam, they get a "spiritual gift", that makes them enlightened.
and then we will proceed to the next.

I have spent sometime personally examining the major religions of the world, Islam being one I had oppertunity to study indepth with someone from a place where it is a common way of life. Nothing he said or that I have read, supports your claim. Even so I will be the first to admit that my studies are no where near complete, so i ask that you provide supporting documation for your claim of how islam or mormonism works in the ways you have described.

Quote:That there are religious people who think that when they truly and fully enter and accept their religion, they are rewarded with "spiritual gifts" and "enlightenment"? What kind of "text" do you expect that would substantiate that there are people who think this? A survey? A newspaper article? I don't know what kind of "text" you require.
Something from their holy books that supports this claim. Again I know/knew muslims and none of them spoke of 'holy enlightment.' Their 'god' is hands off (generally speaking) till the after life, except for a few prophet level exceptions.

Quote:'If you expect a "text", give me a "text" that substantiates your claim, so I can better understand what you are looking for. I didn't ask for it initially, because I didn't think a "text" is appropriate to substantiate your personal experience.
I did on page 2 and you freaked out about keeping my answers short and direct. do you want me to provide you with a link or shall i repost?

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
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15-02-2014, 11:48 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
Every time you use your personal experience to claim something extraordinary, it is anecdotal.

It doesn't matter if you give me a passage in the bible that says you will be rewarded with a "spiritual fruit". You are the one saying that the bible is true because according to your personal experience you indeed received the "spiritual fruit". All this is anecdotal.





You do not get it, so let us reverse the game, to better demonstrate:

I have got a friend. My friend used to be christian for 40 years. He even studied theology and was so devout, he claimed he had received the "spiritual fruit" and "enlightenment". But he heard that Scientology was promising the same things. In fact, a Scientology priest approached him and promised him these things. He thought he would give Scientology a try to prove the Scientology priest wrong. A REAL try.

Because he was a humble, honest and fair soul, he did not try to cheat his way out, but followed Scientology as if he was absolutely serious in joining the religion. Later, he realized the promises were all true. The spiritual gifts and the enlightenment he received were far greater than what he had previously experienced from all those devout years in Christianity. And now he is out there, preaching so people would convert to Scientology.

What would your response be to my friend?

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