Drich, let's have a round
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17-02-2014, 09:26 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(17-02-2014 08:16 AM)Youkay Wrote:  I didn't understand that you believe there are other religions which promise "spiritual gifts" and "enlightenment" which are greater than that what christianity has to offer. Thanks for the confirmation.
Again you go too far. Again and for the last time 'Spiritual fruit' is just the introduction to Christianity. Even so it can be still compared to the enlightment found in practiced masters. Not that it is always better or worse, but it is compareable.

Quote:And stop nominating yourself the victor of a "debate". You are ridiculing yourself. First, this is not a proper debate, which is obvious if you just look at the format of our conversation.
I do not see this as a debate but a 'boxing match' hence the MMA reference. Also I did not proclaim victory I simply was making an inquery as to your ablity to continue on.

Quote: And second, language can be tricky and people might misunderstand each other. In that case, asking to confirm one's understanding is helpful.
That is why I pointed to your words, your own confirmation of the principle being discussed in post 16. (To show you at one point alread had a grasp on this concept, and for some reason have lost it.) Which would make anyone ask why? Two reasons come to my mind, you are not the same person who started this boxing match, or two your getting flustered and not able to keep up.

Quote: And third, there is no need for a winner in a debate.
And I do not see a reason to needlessly "ground and pound" in a point that has already been made and discussed ad nasuim. If any of what i have said is the case then maybe this is not the best format for our discussion.

Quote:Now that I understand your position, namely that there are religions that promise and reward even greater "spiritual gifts" and "enlightenment" than what Christianity has to offer, I must say I am confused.
The God of the bible says the Satan has established many 'false religions' inorder to entice and steal people away from God. Satan and his angels repersent a whole bevy of false gods, and have the power to prop up their various religions with all sorts of warm and fuzzy feelings.
The Book of revelation illustrates Satan's ablity to establish a following that the vast majority of the World is willing to drop their old beliefs and follow.
How could this be possiable if Satan did not have the ablity to reafirm his followers in some meaningful way.

So when your friend says he 'feels' scientology is right, there is a reason for that. I am sure he feels a comfort and has seen confirmation on some level. All active religion is this way. There are forces behind belief. Most of which however are not the God of the Bible.

Quote:That means that Christianity is not special?
Christianity in this life as a religion is one of many. You have to look at content and the Complete fulfillment of promises to be able to determine what is true or not.

Quote:It means that fulfilled promises like "spiritual gifts" and "enlightenment" don't make a religion true, because all religions have those rewards and not all religions can be possibly true (you yourself talked about other religions being false)?

I am honestly, genuinely confused. I am not trying to make a point here. Really.
There is a variable missing in your equasion. God is all powerful, satan is not. While Satan can indeed reach out to us on a spiritual plain he is not able to full fill all that he has promised.

God tells us that is how we are able to identify false prophets and subsequently false gods/religions. The God of the bible has the power and ablity to fulfill all His promises while those following satan, dressed in the cloths of a false god will eventually fall flat, and will have to find a reason a promise from their 'god' has not come to pass.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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17-02-2014, 11:43 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
Youkay Wrote:language can be tricky and people might misunderstand each other. In that case, asking to confirm one's understanding is helpful.
Drich Wrote:That is why I pointed to your words, your own confirmation of the principle being discussed in post 16. (To show you at one point alread had a grasp on this concept, and for some reason have lost it.) Which would make anyone ask why? Two reasons come to my mind, you are not the same person who started this boxing match, or two your getting flustered and not able to keep up.

In post 16 I said this:
Youkay Wrote:Having a "measure of the holy spirit" makes it easier to obtain these attributes. At the same time, these attributes are somehow stronger.
There, my understanding was that you believed the gifts rewarded through Christianity are stronger compared to those of other religions. You confirmed this.

Now you said there are other religions whose spiritual gifts are stronger than those of Christianity. You confirmed this multiple times as well.

These two statements are contradictory. I didn't want to point it out so blatantly, but you kept on insisting. I hope you understand the source of my confusion?

Also, please try to be humble and exhibit humility. Up to this point, I purposefully refrained from saying "you contradicted yourself". I was humble, thought the error was with me and said "I am confused", "I didn't understand" or "Please confirm if my understanding is correct". You on the other hand say "you are getting flustered and not able to keep up".


Youkay Wrote:Now that I understand your position, namely that there are religions that promise and reward even greater "spiritual gifts" and "enlightenment" than what Christianity has to offer, I must say I am confused.
Drich Wrote:The God of the bible says the Satan has established many 'false religions' inorder to entice and steal people away from God. Satan and his angels repersent a whole bevy of false gods, and have the power to prop up their various religions with all sorts of warm and fuzzy feelings.
The Book of revelation illustrates Satan's ablity to establish a following that the vast majority of the World is willing to drop their old beliefs and follow.
How could this be possiable if Satan did not have the ablity to reafirm his followers in some meaningful way.

How do you know that Satan is not behind the promises in Christianity and the true god behind the promises behind another religion? Because all religions make promises and all fulfill them.



Youkay Wrote:It means that fulfilled promises like "spiritual gifts" and "enlightenment" don't make a religion true, because all religions have those rewards and not all religions can be possibly true (you yourself talked about other religions being false)?
Drich Wrote:There is a variable missing in your equasion. God is all powerful, satan is not. While Satan can indeed reach out to us on a spiritual plain he is not able to full fill all that he has promised.

God tells us that is how we are able to identify false prophets and subsequently false gods/religions. The God of the bible has the power and ablity to fulfill all His promises while those following satan, dressed in the cloths of a false god will eventually fall flat, and will have to find a reason a promise from their 'god' has not come to pass.

So far you have only listed "spiritual fruit" and "spiritual gifts" as fulfilled promises, which are also the fulfilled promises of Scientology and other promises (which you have confirmed). Which other promises are you talking about?

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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18-02-2014, 09:13 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(17-02-2014 11:43 AM)Youkay Wrote:  There, my understanding was that you believed the gifts rewarded through Christianity are stronger compared to those of other religions. You confirmed this.
We have not even spoke of Spiritual Gifts yet. Everything has been focused around Spiritual fruit.
We use the term Fruit, because Christ more or less asks, can good fruit come from a thorn bush, or grapes from a fig tree? Spiritual fruit is the simple evidence that the Holy Spirit is upon you.

That said, i did say that the Fruit given was of a higher quality that what we can earn other places and or following other practices. You confusion lies either in an intentional deception or blind confusion because you are freely mixing Spiritual fruit with the full on enlightenment offer through other religions. Buddhist enlightenment, does paralell Spiritual fruit in that some, if not all of the fore mention fruit are intrinsic values of enlightenment, but buddhist enlightenment goes well beyond Spiritual fruit. (Meaning there are values found in enlightment not offered by the Holy Spirit.) To that end if one is judging enlightenment alone then it is correct to say Buddhism offers a stronger or more Complete form of enlightenment than Christianity does.


Quote:Now you said there are other religions whose spiritual gifts are stronger than those of Christianity. You confirmed this multiple times as well.
Ahh, no.
Spiritual Fruit= Evidences of the Holy Spirit in one's life

Spiritual Gifts= The God given ablity to perform a duty or task that was not previously possiable.

again we have not even mentioned Spiritual gifts yet. For someone who claims to have a science based job one would think that your dedication to definations and their proper usage would be paramount. Your actual loose usage of these Spiritual terms seems to indicate a desperate attempt to change the momentum of this discussion, at any cost.

You have asked too many questions to honestly be this confused.

Quote:These two statements are contradictory. I didn't want to point it out so blatantly, but you kept on insisting. I hope you understand the source of my confusion?
I do indeed. It is either intentional, meaning it is a desperate hope that you would be able to confuse me using my own terms about my religion, Or for whatever reason you are not able to retain the information that has already been discussed.

Quote:Also, please try to be humble and exhibit humility. Up to this point, I purposefully refrained from saying "you contradicted yourself". I was humble, thought the error was with me and said "I am confused", "I didn't understand" or "Please confirm if my understanding is correct". You on the other hand say "you are getting flustered and not able to keep up".
It's not my intention to seem arrogant or 'not humble.' I diagnois system failures for a living. I tend to see things in black and white. Because inorder to put a system back in order one must be decisive and be able to work from a solid position. I also build diagnostic trees for others to follow. Identify the problem as being It is X or 1, if 'X' the move to 'Y'. If 1 move to 2. etc.. I am simply looking for clues to determine if your exhibiting X tendencies or 1 Tendancies.

Quote:How do you know that Satan is not behind the promises in Christianity and the true god behind the promises behind another religion? Because all religions make promises and all fulfill them.
But they don't. The Quran has been changed or augmented many times over the years to reflect the natural progression of History, and to suppliment the want and will of it's religious leadership.. For instance did you know that orginally Muslim Martyrs were not offered the 72 virgins they now get? There are hundreds of examples of these changes: http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/
Not to mention the false prophcies of Mohammad http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/f...hecies.htm

The same is true for scientology and mormomism and the rest.

Which is fine if this is what these people want for themselves.


Quote:So far you have only listed "spiritual fruit" and "spiritual gifts" as fulfilled promises, which are also the fulfilled promises of Scientology and other promises (which you have confirmed). Which other promises are you talking about?
I was going to start a whole nother thread on this when i had time. i would post it here but this will only serve to confuse you further. I think we should nail down any remaining 'confusion' you have first.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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18-02-2014, 11:12 AM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
I had enough of you. This leads us nowhere. You are being dishonest, arrogant and offensive for quite a long while now.

I am tired of always going through our conversation, putting together quotes and summarizing the flow and context of the conversation in order to visualize to you what we have been talking about so far. And you dodge all the time. It is tiring to fight against so much intellectual dishonesty...

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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18-02-2014, 12:13 PM
RE: Drich, let's have a round
(18-02-2014 11:12 AM)Youkay Wrote:  I had enough of you. This leads us nowhere. You are being dishonest, arrogant and offensive for quite a long while now.
These are empty accusations. Can you sight examples, or you content with ending on a red herring?


Quote:I am tired of always going through our conversation, putting together quotes and summarizing the flow and context of the conversation in order to visualize to you what we have been talking about so far.
I understand that it must be extremely frustrating to do all of the work you just mentioned, just to be shot down each and every time, then feign intrest be forced to hear and learn more to start over and try again, just to be shot down again. especially if your goal wasn't as stated, but to win this arguement based on 'logic and reason.' I guess I now have the proof I sought as to the reason you were not able to stay on point with all that we had perviously discussed. You were indeed seeking avenues to exploit to this end. Which is to say the least very disappointing over all. however on the positive side, i did get to speak alot more about the steps to becomming a Christian after the initial A/S/K, and for that I thank you.


Quote:And you dodge all the time.
I have answered each and every single querry/conflict straight on, line by line. I have not dodged anything except your intended word play/traps, simply by sticking by the truth.

Quote:It is tiring to fight against so much intellectual dishonesty...
Actually it was quite enjoiable. Cool If you remember you were the one feigning ignorance and the need for clarity while bending the topic to fit your definations and the strawmen created from my orginal position. what was tiring for you was to do all of this work and not get anywhere with your efforts. It was not tiring to unraveling your webs, and being given the oppertunity to re explain these principles as if you were a 4th grader.Tongue

Honestly I rather enjoyed our exchange. I like the back and forth and I liked the nature of the one on one this boxing ring provides. If you ever wish to pick up this conversation at any point I will leave an open invitation for you.

Thank you for your time.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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18-02-2014, 09:36 PM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2014 11:07 PM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: Drich, let's have a round
Match is over thread is now split and closed per the Boxing ring rules


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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